Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
AcceptinConsiderationOffer

Am I the only complete failure here?

Recommended Posts

If I have any advice to offer you on this, is to not let this temporary setback define you. You are not a "failure" as a person, you're simply a normal guy who's had a bit of a rough patch. It doesn't make you any less worthy, or any less capable, than your peers. I guarantee everybody, and I mean everybody, will go through some kind of rough patch in their lives. It's part of being human. You are not defined by the fact you are going through a rough patch, you are defined by how hard you work and the action you take to get yourself out of this rough patch. If you can honestly go to bed each evening and say "I did my best today, I made the best of my circumstances" then that is enough. 

 

Don't be ashamed that you are going through a rough patch, be proud that you're still standing and still fighting. That's what defines you.

Edited by Livinginamerica
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/23/2017 at 3:17 PM, AcceptinConsiderationOffer said:

My self-esteem is at an all time low and I'm wrestling with depression every day. It's hard not to feel worthless. So I'm wondering how people dealt with that more specifically, the feeling of constant rejection/failure? 

Thank-you.

Edit: One thing I forgot to add, one of the worst things is people constantly underestimate how hard this has been. Everyone just assumes that because I have higher level education, "things will work eventually!" Well it sure doesn't feel like it. Now that I'm trying to find jobs in other industries, I get hammered and screened out because everyone is afraid I will run back to the law at the first chance. It feels like this degree is an anchor weighing me down.

I want to add that I have been in the particular boat of being accomplished and unemployed. It is jarring and difficult to wrap your head around and yes, incredibly depressing. There's a disconnect between what you've been told about who you are and what you seem to be achieving in the moment. Totally normal that this makes you feel like a failure. But that doesn't mean you're a failure.

My experience leads me to just say "trust the process". Job hunting takes longer for some than others and bad luck/timing/however you want to put it is often the culprit. Every day will feel incredibly difficult and then you'll get the job and all of it will disappear like it never happened.

One other thing: my articles were the result of reaching out to someone who had previously ignored my application altogether. Just because a bit of outreach hasn't resulted in a job, doesn't mean it won't.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2017 at 0:48 AM, omph said:

Stopped back just to see if OP is all right, but I can't resist responding, briefly, to Diplock.

Diplock, I strongly disagree with you, and I think the tone you are taking -- saying the OP is "wallowing," that their approach is unhealthy, that they are preventing their own recovery -- is both wrong and detrimental.

Getting fresh advice and trying new things is maybe step 10. Step 2 is feeling like you're not alone and somebody understands. Step 1 is even being able to talk about what's going on in the first place.

Let's try not to shame OP for not being at step 10 yet. They are not "wallowing," nor are they preventing themselves from moving forward. You imply that the fact that they're not ready for the step you happen to get your kicks out of means they are doing this wrong and are somehow at fault, their continued misery is of their own making, they are holding themselves back.

Actually, OP is seeking a real human need to feel connected and less alone. And not only is that perfectly okay, but it's actually a crucially important step forward. Good for you, OP, for seeking out what you need right now.

Let's try not to knock OP back a step by blaming them for feeling depressed. 

 

 

 

I cannot like this comment enough. I find this forum can be incredibly toxic when it comes to dealing with emotional issues. Some people on here only want to criticize and tell others to effectively "suck it up." And when I see posts like that, I don't wonder why lawyers have such high rates of depression and suicide compared to other professional groups. I know that the current legal field perpetuates a lot of unhealthy habits. But we know better than that now. Or at least we should. Let's try to make things better instead of continuing something that is clearly not working. Signing up to be a lawyer doesn't mean giving up your humanity.

OP, I'm sorry that you are going through this. I am looking for a position too. The only difference is that I graduated this spring. I don't have much to say to you except this: Please, please know that you are not a failure.

Edit: I'd also like to thank the OP for having the courage to start this thread. It's important for people considering a legal career - and even for those already in it - to see that this happens. Not everyone's way is going to be smooth, and that doesn't say anything about you or your value as a person. You are not your job. This is especially important considering the fact that roughly 75% of the discussion about jobs on this forum goes along the lines of "Is my A average high enough to get me a Biglaw job like Harvey Specter?"

Edited by kathryndan
  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't possibly be allowed to think of yourself as a failure after having finished law school, OP. Its difficult to find work and there is a lot of competition, it hardly means that you're a failure. If you don't mind me asking, where did you finish school? And what types of firms work-wise have you been targeting? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, kathryndan said:

I cannot like this comment enough. I find this forum can be incredibly toxic when it comes to dealing with emotional issues. Some people on here only want to criticize and tell others to effectively "suck it up." And when I see posts like that, I don't wonder why lawyers have such high rates of depression and suicide compared to other professional groups. I know that the current legal field perpetuates a lot of unhealthy habits. But we know better than that now. Or at least we should. Let's try to make things better instead of continuing something that is clearly not working. Signing up to be a lawyer doesn't mean giving up your humanity.

This is exactly right, and crucially important.

I don't know why people respond so blamefully to people who are genuinely struggling and really vulnerable. It is damaging, deeply so.

Maybe they haven't experienced that state, I don't know. Maybe they don't understand how hard it is to speak up when your mind is drowning. It is excruciatingly hard. Drowning is an appropriate metaphor. 

Like, do you care about the high rates of addiction and mental illness in our profession? Do you care whether your colleagues are mentally well? (And I'm directing this at everybody.)

If you care, then do something about it. Go read up on what signs should make you concerned. Go educate yourself on what kind of responses are helpful versus harmful.

My five cents on what we should aim towards:

The totally wrong way to deal with these issues: Someone confides that they are not okay, and you say, "Stop wallowing and get your shit together." 

The pretty good way to deal with these issues: Someone confides that they're not okay, and you say, "That sounds really hard. I'm sorry. Let me know if you need to talk or if I can help in any way."

The very good way to deal with these issues: Someone confides that they are not okay, and you say, "Thank you for sharing this with me. I care about you and I want to help. Would you find it helpful if I did X, Y, or Z, or is that not what you need right now? No, of course this isn't your fault. You're doing the best that you can. Are you comfortable telling me more about what's going on so I can understand how to help you?"

The optimal way of dealing with these issues: Same as the very good way, except you didn't wait for them to confide in you. You reached out to them first when you saw there was a problem.

Edited by omph
  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

omph. I agree with your approach. It's the approach I take with colleagues/friends/family when they're going through shit. And we all go through shit. But, ironically, I think you're failing to realize that both approaches are an attempt to get the person to the same point. I think we can be a bit more charitable to Diplock and see his point as more than "suck it up". 

Edited by PredictablyDarwin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Apropos of perhaps nothing:

It took me about eight years of practise as an arrogant know it all before I really understood the terrible and all consuming power of the mind. 

In my early days I mouthed the right words because I wanted to be an empathetic person, but really I understood very little. I was fine, so "fine" was an easy state to achieve, and people who said they were suffering were just being dramatic or weak. 

I know better now. I am frankly ashamed of my former patronizing attitude. If all you can do is acknowledge that maybe you don't know best, and don't really understand, that's a start. This profession takes a toll. We need to be there for each other. 

(Fwiw, in the context of this forum I have encountered very supportive people behind the occasionally cyncial keyboards. The abrupt advice is almost always well meant even if the timing is off.)

  • Like 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not going to get into a competition to see who can respond most appropriately to a situation about which we all, to be honest, know very little. I'll make only these several related observations.

First, the OP never, at any point, raised mental health issues in an explicit way. If you choose to read clinical depression or other mental health concerns into his/her situation, I can see how that might be true. But we don't really know. I would have responded differently to a post explicitly raising mental health, and I have in the past.

Second, I'm replying in terms that are similar to what I'd need in a comparable situation, and have needed in the past. You can choose to believe that makes me a cold and cynical person, if you like. You can choose to believe that makes even the way I respond to struggles in my own life unhealthy, if you like. I won't even swear you're wrong. But we all respond differently, and I assume that my personality type doesn't fall outside your "validate everyone" philosophy.

Third, I assume we are all trying to say something useful that could be what a person needs to hear right now, and that we're all drawing, to some degree or other, from our own ideas of what we need to hear. I think a range of replies is actually best, in situations such as these, because there's no sure way to stick this one. There's no universally appropriate advice. That's why I offered what I had to offer, and didn't try to turn it into a debate about who's right. I don't think there is a "right" answer that everyone who is struggling needs to hear. I think there are a range of possible replies that might help, and different people will respond to different approaches.

Finally, I can construct a scenario in which excessive validation can be as damaging as excessive pushing. But I'm truly not out to compete. If you choose to believe what I'm writing is unwelcome and badly intended, that's fine. I don't think what you're writing is unwelcome and badly intended. But seriously, ask yourself. If you're offering a version of what you need, and I'm offering a version of what I need - are you calling me an asshole, or suggesting that I'm wired wrong as a human being, or both?

I hope the OP finds whatever he or she needed here, in all events.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who has been through some form of depression years ago, and has counselled friends through similar issues, generally when you're wallowing you know you're wallowing. There's a perverse sort of satisfaction in doing so that can get addictive, but I don't think anyone smart enough to graduate law school is too dumb to realize that sitting around feeling sorry for yourself is unproductive. Of course it's unproductive; that shouldn't be breaking news to the OP. But it's okay to do it if it's what you need to do. 

I read Diplock's thing as 'wallow as much as you need to, then know that the next steps are there when you're ready'. I wouldn't have found that offensive during my own low points, and I don't know why we're all bashing him for it. The only problem I had with the comment is that I'm not sure the OP was asking for company for his/her own misery. I think they were just looking for reassurance, but not in the form of the platitudes being offered in this thread. We can all shout "it's not your fault" to them until we're blue in the face, and they won't believe it unless they believe it. Which is why the OP (smartly, I think) asked to hear about other people in similar situations, so that there's evidence to back up the knowledge that they're not a failure. I certainly hope that anyone who is in the same place has messaged the OP, even if they're not comfortable sharing publicly. 

 

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like we're all discounting the value of advice like "suck it up and solve the problem".

I'm not a heavily emotional person. At the times when I have struggled in my life I have always interpreted the "very good" and "optimal" approaches omph describes to be empty platitudes at best and condescending at worst. Now, that's not to say that Omph is trying to throw around useless platitudes or to condescend to OP – in fact, I believe the opposite, she's almost certainly sincerely trying to help – but that is how I would have interpreted her comments during my struggles. I don't do well with people emphasizing with me when I'm struggling, and for me Omph's approach would have been entirely ineffective.

I am a heavily logical person. I cope with problems by sitting down, thinking through them in the most objective and logical fashion I can, and then implementing the plan I come up with. The times I have struggled most in my life are times where I have gotten stuck in the "wallowing" (to adopt the chosen terminology of this thread) phase. Here I disagree with Kiamia: when I have been stuck in the wallowing phase I often fail to recognize (consciously) that I am wallowing. This blindness has, in the past, prevented me from moving on to my coping methods. For this reason often the best advice I can receive during my moments of struggle is "suck it up and solve the problem". People that are close to me know this, and thus they know that when I'm struggling, whether deeply or more shallowly, I tend to need tough love. 

Now, I don't want to pretend to know what OP wanted, or more importantly what OP needed. It is entirely possible that OP needed what Omph has prescribed. If I'm being an honest arbiter (a role I have most certainly not been asked to fill) I may even give a slight edge to Omph's methods as being "safer" than Diplock's tough love. However, in the absence of other evidence, I do think it's unfair to Diplock to argue that his advice is "totally wrong". It's entirely possible that Diplock's advice is totally wrong, but I don't think it's a given. If I were OP then Diplock's advice would have been the optimal method and the softer advice would have been ineffective (though I wouldn't go so far as to say it would be totally wrong).  

 

Anyways, to @AcceptinConsiderationOffer, I hope that some advice in this thread has been helpful to you, beyond the debate of what exactly constitutes good advice. I think others here have provided sound advice, and as a 0L I'm woefully unprepared to help counsel you in your career. I wish you the best moving forward and sincerely hope that your fortunes turn around soon. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I think everyone's approach was a bit flawed, although some more than others. The reason being that the OP told us specifically what they needed from us, and in the typical ls.ca way, we all sort of ignored them. I mean, they specifically asked: 

On 2017-6-23 at 6:17 PM, AcceptinConsiderationOffer said:

My self-esteem is at an all time low and I'm wrestling with depression every day. It's hard not to feel worthless. So I'm wondering how people dealt with that more specifically, the feeling of constant rejection/failure? 

Hence why I originally linked Another Hutz's posts. Because he dealt with it so well, and much better than I've ever dealt with failure/rejection. Also, he's a lot cooler than I will ever be (not that it's a high bar to clear) so I assume if he had trouble finding articles, it could happen to anyone. 

And in the vein of offering advice that wasn't asked for, I do want to mention that short-term contracts/temp work are generally less worried that you're going to ditch the job or screen you out for other qualifications. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Diplock said:

First, the OP never, at any point, raised mental health issues in an explicit way. If you choose to read clinical depression or other mental health concerns into his/her situation, I can see how that might be true. But we don't really know. I would have responded differently to a post explicitly raising mental health, and I have in the past.

OP said they wrestle with depression every day, and feels worthless and like a complete failure. Sounds like an explicit reference to mental health issues to me, and feelings or worthlessness and hopelessness are the generally the most dangerous of depression symptoms. 

It's obviously not up to anyone on an internet forum to diagnose someone with clinical depression, but I think the point that members of a profession with very high incidence of mental health issues should be attuned to obvious signs and learn how to respond appropriately is important. 

Doesn't mean you're an asshole because you didn't (or still don't) see that here while others do, but note OP also specifically said the worst part is people not understanding how hard it is for them and telling them it's not so bad. Telling someone suffering from depression that they should suck it up (no matter how well intended) makes them feel worse, and this poster makes it clear that's true for them right now. 

There was a lot of good advice in this thread for OP, but omph's advice is also very good and broadly important. I don't think there's any need for believing it means someone is a bad person (or an asshole) for not seeing signs of potential mental illness or mental health crisis, or for unintentionally responding in a way most people in that situation would find unhelpful or even harmful.

I don't think saying the legal profession has an issue with mental illness is news to anyone at this point (it's been worrying me since I began reconsidering law school), and pointing out areas for improvement shouldn't be an attack on any individual's empathy either. 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

-

I'm far from a mental health expert, and to be honest, I try to keep my post to "chances" threads, but here it is.. 

I spoke to the OP in PM's, and I have to say, I can tell OP is a nice, humble guy/gal who just hit some shitty luck. From the amount of effort OP spent on networking/trying to obtain a position, I can see why s/he is frustrated. I know things will work out for OP, just from the brief convo I've had with him/her. 

Like many of you, I've gone through some rough patches in my life. My method of coping with these rough times is similar to BQ's. I don't want pity or empathy, or someone to tell me everything is going to be okay. I want to sit down and figure out a plan to get myself out of the shit spot I'm in. Like QB, when I was stuck in the "wallowing" phase, I didn't even know what was happening. I didn't want to leave my room, talk to friends, participate in my regular hobbies - I just wanted isolation because I wanted to figure out what the fuck was wrong with me, without anyone else knowing something was up. It's tough when you're in that state of mind, though, as QB pointed out, your regular logical train of thought no longer exists. 

I grew up in a house where my parents worried about war and "real problems" growing up, so when I eventually mustered up enough courage to mention that I might be going through something, my pops asked me if I had a roof over my head, food on the table, friends/family that care for me? I answered yes. He replied with something along the lines of "man the fuck up real quick, son". This is what I did - alone. Took a long time for me to feel "normal". I started getting back into my daily routine after months of feeling absolutely lost. The phase where you feel worthless and depressed is real, and when you're in it, you don't realize where time is going. You don't even care. One day I woke up happy, out of no where. I started hitting the gym again, enrolled in school again, called up some lady friends and went on dates, hung out with the guys - everything just went from absolute shit to amazing. I started bettering myself and those awful thoughts completely subsided. It's messed up how your mind can have such control over your life, destroying your motivation and ambition, but this happens, and I feel for OP if he/she is going through it.

Now, the point I really want to make is, my method (and I assume QB's, after his post) isn't the healthiest. I grew up in a house/culture where you don't complain about mental health, you just deal with it and move on with life. This isn't normal or healthy. I reached out and I didn't get help back, and it took me way longer to figure it out on my own. Even though it's the exact opposite of the approach I used, I like the more approachable and comforting approach taken by Omph. I didn't have diagnosed depression, but I felt fucked up. I don't feel like that at all now, in fact, I've been extremely happy for the last 4-5 years of my life, and looking back, I sometimes remember what that rough patch was like and am I ever glad it's past me. I used to make fun of people who were depressed because I didn't believe it was a real thing - that shit happens to a lot of people and it's real. I've seen it happen to friends/family who have had it way worse than me, and there's no way these people are doing it for sympathy, they're really feeling it. Even though, if I went through another rough patch, I'd probably resort to my 'man up' tactics, that doesn't mean it's right or healthy. It probably has more to do with my insecurities/pride with having to ask for help, especially about a mental health issue. Sometimes you have to man up, don't get me wrong, but when you feel useless and question your worth as a human - don't worry about sucking it up or being a tough dude, just reach out for help. 

People handle these rough patches differently. Talking about something like this with others (professionals, friends, etc) is how you take the stress off of your mind. When you realize people will not judge you for speaking out, you'll start to feel normal again. You can be yourself and be comfortable with the fact that humans go through tough times, and there's nothing wrong with you. We all, to some extent, have gone through messed up times (I'm not talking, Oh no I didn't get the job I wanted, I hate my life, now time to go skiing - I'm talking the times when you feel like you're useless and start to truly consider yourself a failure, and question your worth as a person), and the important part is keeping a positive mindset and overcoming these issues with small steps.  OP, you're a Canadian law school grad, you aren't allowed to call yourself a failure. Things will work out, man, just trust the process. Keep hustling. 

 

 

 

Edited by GameTime180
typo
  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to respond briefly: I am not trying to imply that anyone here has bad intentions. I think all of us mean well and just want to help OP. I am trying to talk about how we can effectively do that.

In saying that kind of blameful response is not helpful for someone who, as treemonster pointed out, is exhibiting obvious signs of clinical depression, I am drawing on:

-- What OP said to me in a private message

-- What other posters said to me in private messages about this incident and other similar ones

-- Discussions with mental health providers about how they provide care

-- Extensive reading on how to assist people with mental illness

-- Experience supporting people with mental illness in my own life

-- My own experience of mental illness and knowledge of how different kinds of messages affected me

Of course there are some people who need and benefit from a kick in the pants. Everyone is different. But it should not be our first line of defence with strangers, particularly when they explicitly state that responses like that would not be helpful. It is irrational to assume they are an outlier among people with depressive symptoms, and given how damaging blameful statements can be to people who are in a constant state of guilt, it is also irresponsible.

If you haven't experienced mental illness, or even if you have, I recommend you read up on evidence-based constructive approaches to supporting people with mental illness, and apply those most of the time.

I also recommend actually listening to people, and taking them seriously when they explicitly tell you what they need.

ETA: Just as a final note, I would like to remind all of you that mental illness is a medical issue. You can't just will yourself out of depression. 

Edited by omph

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I feel like the best approach here is perhaps some sort of middle ground. We shouldn't encourage someone to wallow without action or aim, but rather should gently encourage them to make small efforts, which slowly become greater. As they make these efforts, we should validate and encourage that person so that they can generate some positive momentum to move forward from these feelings. It frankly should be a mix of Omph and Diplock's approach. Don't just give them a kick up the ass, but don't just comfort them either. Slowly encourage them to make whatever effort they can, and support them as they make the effort they are able to make. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Livinginamerica said:

I feel like the best approach here is perhaps some sort of middle ground. We shouldn't encourage someone to wallow without action or aim, but rather should gently encourage them to make small efforts, which slowly become greater. As they make these efforts, we should validate and encourage that person so that they can generate some positive momentum to move forward from these feelings. It frankly should be a mix of Omph and Diplock's approach. Don't just give them a kick up the ass, but don't just comfort them either. Slowly encourage them to make whatever effort they can, and support them as they make the effort they are able to make. 

Sure. I am not trying to say we should only ever comfort people. I am trying to say we shouldn't respond with blame, and we should be attuned to what they need right now, whether that's empathy or gentle encouragement or anything else.

ETA: Generally you can't effectively give gentle encouragement until you have developed a relationship of trust. Blame often kills that relationship.

Edited by omph
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One more thing: responding with empathy is often the most constructive approach just because it makes it more likely that people will open up more and tell you the full extent of what's actually going on. If people put out tentative feelers and you respond with blame, it shuts the conversation down before you can even get to the real issues.

Edited by omph
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, omph said:

One more thing: responding with empathy is often the most constructive approach just because it makes it more likely that people will open up more and tell you the full extent of what's actually going on. If people put out tentative feelers and you respond with blame, it shuts the conversation down before you can even get to the real issues.

Ok, no one here - no one - has "respond[ed] with blame" to the OPs predicament. On the contrary, the almost uniform conclusion seems to be that the OPs predicament is likely not a comment on them - that they are not to blame for their current state of affairs.  It is, in fact, a testament to the civility and decency of the populace here that people have uniformly - yes, even Diplock (who, despite calling me an asshole yesterday, is a decent bloke) - responded to the Ops' predicament with sympathy and sound advice. Or maybe the mods put a  "troll-be-gone" virus in this thread. I'm hard pressed to imagine any other venue on the internet where that would be true. 

I don't know where you came up with the notion that people responded "with blame" to the OP - it seems to be entirely a function of your neuroses.  It certainly isn't a conclusion one comes to based on a fair minded reading of any of the posts in this thread.

Now, maybe Dr.  Oomph thinks that some of that advice the OP has received is not good advice.  That's fine (I disagree, BTW, and think Diplock's advice was sound, and note that it was shared by others), but you can climb down off your high horse any time you want.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, maximumbob said:

Ok, no one here - no one - has "respond[ed] with blame" to the OPs predicament. On the contrary, the almost uniform conclusion seems to be that the OPs predicament is likely not a comment on them - that they are not to blame for their current state of affairs.  It is, in fact, a testament to the civility and decency of the populace here that people have uniformly - yes, even Diplock (who, despite calling me an asshole yesterday, is a decent bloke) - responded to the Ops' predicament with sympathy and sound advice. Or maybe the mods put a  "troll-be-gone" virus in this thread. I'm hard pressed to imagine any other venue on the internet where that would be true. 

I don't know where you came up with the notion that people responded "with blame" to the OP - it seems to be entirely a function of your neuroses.  It certainly isn't a conclusion one comes to based on a fair minded reading of any of the posts in this thread.

Now, maybe Dr.  Oomph thinks that some of that advice the OP has received is not good advice.  That's fine (I disagree, BTW, and think Diplock's advice was sound, and note that it was shared by others), but you can climb down off your high horse any time you want.  

Describing someone's depressive symptoms as "wallowing" is blameful. 

Probably someone who is feeling fine and dandy wouldn't interpret it that way and would shrug it off.

When you're dealing with someone who says they feel worthless, depressed, and alone, those comments often cut way deeper. That's because one of the features of depression is a constant feeling of debilitating guilt and shame that you are thereby reinforcing. People in this state can be extremely vulnerable. It's important to bear that in mind.

The reason I'm saying this is not because I want to be on a high horse. There is a time and place for Diplock's brand of reality check. That time is not when someone says they are experiencing symptoms suggestive of clinical depression. 

The OP expressed to me that they were so upset by some of the responses in this thread that they couldn't even bring themselves to look at it anymore. Another poster who was lurking expressed a similar sentiment to me.

I recognize that everyone here was trying to help. It's important to consider feedback about how effectual your advice is in different circumstances. I'm just trying to say, when a post raises the spectre of mental illness, moderate your tone appropriately if you want to offer constructive help.

Much as I don't appreciate the personal insult, Bob, you are right. I am looking at this issue from the point of view of someone who's been there. That absolutely informs my approach, and it should.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...