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Buckets123

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Another way to frame this: going to Windsor is going to hurt, thought hardly destroy, your ONCA and SCC applications should you desire them. The recruit should be easy. 

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Alright, I'm gonna bite with some Windsor Grades of my own:

Torts A

Criminal A-

Contracts B+

Property B+

Legal Research and Writing B +

Constitution B+

(I am nothing if not consistent)

Edited by whoknows
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Thanks everyone for the feedback, it's much appreciated and I feel a lot better! While I understand Windsor isn't U of T I was pretty thrown by hearing someone say to take success with a grain of salt. 

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36 minutes ago, whoknows said:

Alright, I'm gonna bite with some Windsor Grades of my own:

Torts A

Criminal A-

Contracts B+

Property B+

Legal Research and Writing B +

Constitution B+

(I am nothing if not consistent)

Again, B+ average or better = competitive for toronto OCIs. As long as your app is in order you should be in the double digit category for OCIs. 

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19 hours ago, Ambit said:

Another way to frame this: going to Windsor is going to hurt, thought hardly destroy, your ONCA and SCC applications should you desire them. The recruit should be easy. 

I mean obviously if you're mid/top tier from U of T yes you will be highly valued, but respectfully, I think the only negative perception of Windsor Law is among Law Students and not the industry itself. Regarding potential ONCA or SCC positions, respectfully: http://www.uwindsor.ca/dailynews/2011-09-21/law-student-headed-for-highest-court-in-the-land

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22 minutes ago, CanadianJD27 said:

I mean obviously if you're mid/top tier from U of T yes you will be highly valued, but respectfully, I think the only negative perception of Windsor Law is among Law Students and not the industry itself. Regarding potential ONCA or SCC positions, respectfully: http://www.uwindsor.ca/dailynews/2011-09-21/law-student-headed-for-highest-court-in-the-land

Look at that story, because it actually tends to refute your statement. Since 1986, Windsor has had 6 SCC clerks. By way of contrast, in 2013 alone, the SCC hired 6 clerks from McGill.

Now the SCC hires 27 clerks a year (and presume it did back in the day too, but I could be wrong).  Until recently there were 16 Canadian law schools. So, you might imagine, if the SCC picked students more or less evenly from Canadian law schools, that Windsor might have averaged 1 SCC clerk a year for the past 30 years (yes, strictly speaking, it should be 1.6 or so, but let's adjust for Windsor's relatively small size and the fact that the SCC probably makes a point of ensuring that clerks from accross Canada are represented). It has not. (it's actually averaged about 0.2)

Now, you have to be careful to read too much into that. It may be that people who go to Windsor have different interests than those who go to UofT or McGill - maybe the latter two attract more academics, the former attracts more practicing lawyers. But, it certainly might be read as suggesting that at the exalted levels of the SCC there is a "Windsor" discount. 

I think the answer is more prosaic - the talent pool at Windsor tends to be shallower. 

To come back to my basketball analogy, the best player on both Toronto and Cleveland are both all-stars. But, with all due respect to DeMar, James is the better of the two players and has the better claim to be MVP. Big law hires allstars, the SCC hires MVPS. 

I do agree with you that the industry doesn't have a particularly negative view of Windsor the law school. It's a perfectly good school and I know a number of great lawyers that have come out of it. But it attracts a "weaker" (measured by undergrad performance, LSAT and, often, soft factors) group of students than, say, UofT or Osgoode (and I emphasize this is true as a group, not of any one student at Windsor). There is a risk of big fish/small pond syndrome. Maybe the best student at Windsor is a Derozan. Which is to say, the industry doesn't have a negative view of Windsor, just Windsor's top grads aren't "quite" as impressive as, say, Mcgill's or UofT's - the James of the world. 

Now, while it may be true that, on average Windsor's top students are Derozan's rather than James, there is no reason to expect that to be true of the op. After all, sometimes someone you expect to be a Derozan ends up as a James (Kobe Bryant, for example, was drafted 13th overall, had one of the greatest careers in history and is a mortal lock for the hall of fame). If the Op wants to clerk at the SCC, apply. Certainly so far, his (her) grades are such that he would likely be seriously considered.  

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I was always under the impression that McGill placed well at the SCC because of it's higher percentage of bilingual students.

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57 minutes ago, maximumbob said:

Look at that story, because it actually tends to refute your statement. Since 1986, Windsor has had 6 SCC clerks. By way of contrast, in 2013 alone, the SCC hired 6 clerks from McGill.

Now the SCC hires 27 clerks a year (and presume it did back in the day too, but I could be wrong).  Until recently there were 16 Canadian law schools. So, you might imagine, if the SCC picked students more or less evenly from Canadian law schools, that Windsor might have averaged 1 SCC clerk a year for the past 30 years (yes, strictly speaking, it should be 1.6 or so, but let's adjust for Windsor's relatively small size and the fact that the SCC probably makes a point of ensuring that clerks from accross Canada are represented). It has not. (it's actually averaged about 0.2)

Now, you have to be careful to read too much into that. It may be that people who go to Windsor have different interests than those who go to UofT or McGill - maybe the latter two attract more academics, the former attracts more practicing lawyers. But, it certainly might be read as suggesting that at the exalted levels of the SCC there is a "Windsor" discount. 

I think the answer is more prosaic - the talent pool at Windsor tends to be shallower. 

To come back to my basketball analogy, the best player on both Toronto and Cleveland are both all-stars. But, with all due respect to DeMar, James is the better of the two players and has the better claim to be MVP. Big law hires allstars, the SCC hires MVPS. 

I do agree with you that the industry doesn't have a particularly negative view of Windsor the law school. It's a perfectly good school and I know a number of great lawyers that have come out of it. But it attracts a "weaker" (measured by undergrad performance, LSAT and, often, soft factors) group of students than, say, UofT or Osgoode (and I emphasize this is true as a group, not of any one student at Windsor). There is a risk of big fish/small pond syndrome. Maybe the best student at Windsor is a Derozan. Which is to say, the industry doesn't have a negative view of Windsor, just Windsor's top grads aren't "quite" as impressive as, say, Mcgill's or UofT's - the James of the world. 

Now, while it may be true that, on average Windsor's top students are Derozan's rather than James, there is no reason to expect that to be true of the op. After all, sometimes someone you expect to be a Derozan ends up as a James (Kobe Bryant, for example, was drafted 13th overall, had one of the greatest careers in history and is a mortal lock for the hall of fame). If the Op wants to clerk at the SCC, apply. Certainly so far, his (her) grades are such that he would likely be seriously considered.  

You raise valid points, some I agree with, and some I'll have to disagree with (obviously I'm biased here as it's my school). As Windsor Law's student body is much smaller than other schools (~120-130 compared to U of T for example at ~200), not to mention the program is newer compared to others (I believe the law school only opened around 1965), I'm not sure if you can compare the absolute numbers, as there may simply be more U of T/McGill applicants due to the larger student body (or even larger group of interested students). I also wonder how the bilingual & Common Law/Civil Law certification from McGill may boost acceptances for SCC clerkships from McGill students (if at all) as another poster commented. But of course, I certainly recognise that U of T is a top ranked law school not just in Canada but really around the world. That being said, however, when our applicants are consistently landing positions on Bay Street and in top US firms, when our students are being selected for and excelling in coveted moot court competitions like the Oxford IP Moot, NationalLaw Meet, Hicks Morley, OTLA , and other such opportunities, I will have to respectfully disagree that there is any real "Windsor discount." 

Statistically, yes the entrance requirements to Windsor Law are lower, and perhaps that's a symptom of a new school opening and trying to attract new students, but to be honest, I find it troubling that the stats are lower and would like to see it raised comparable to say Western and Queens. I agree though that the school has room for improvement, as does any program, and I'm not arguing that Lowry>Lebron, but I respectfully disagree that there's a "discount" or any "stigma" from Windsor students. So as the "little guy" I'd argue that sending students three years in a row (as per the article) to the SCC, not to mention building an LLM Program, JD/MBA, JD/MSW, and consistently placing students in highly coveted summer/articling/and associate level positions indicates that we're doing quite fine. Ultimately though we'll agree to disagree - I'll leave you with the last word. 

To the original poster of this thread, I'd like to reiterate congratulations on your fantastic grades, I'm positive you will do just fine come OCI time. Please google the firms you're interested in and reach out to the Windsor students there, they'll be able to paint you a more accurate picture regarding the recruitment process. 

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9 minutes ago, CanadianJD27 said:

You raise valid points, some I agree with, and some I'll have to disagree with (obviously I'm biased here as it's my school). As Windsor Law's student body is much smaller than other schools (~120-130 compared to U of T for example at ~200), not to mention the program is newer compared to others (I believe the law school only opened around 1965), I'm not sure if you can compare the absolute numbers, as there may simply be more U of T/McGill applicants due to the larger student body (or even larger group of interested students). I also wonder how the bilingual & Common Law/Civil Law certification from McGill may boost acceptances for SCC clerkships from McGill students (if at all) as another poster commented. But of course, I certainly recognise that U of T is a top ranked law school not just in Canada but really around the world. That being said, however, when our applicants are consistently landing positions on Bay Street and in top US firms, when our students are being selected for and excelling in coveted moot court competitions like the Oxford IP Moot, NationalLaw Meet, Hicks Morley, OTLA , and other such opportunities, I will have to respectfully disagree that there is any real "Windsor discount." 

Statistically, yes the entrance requirements to Windsor Law are lower, and perhaps that's a symptom of a new school opening and trying to attract new students, but to be honest, I find it troubling that the stats are lower and would like to see it raised comparable to say Western and Queens. I agree though that the school has room for improvement, as does any program, and I'm not arguing that Lowry>Lebron, but I respectfully disagree that there's a "discount" or any "stigma" from Windsor students. So as the "little guy" I'd argue that sending students three years in a row (as per the article) to the SCC, not to mention building an LLM Program, JD/MBA, JD/MSW, and consistently placing students in highly coveted summer/articling/and associate level positions indicates that we're doing quite fine. Ultimately though we'll agree to disagree - I'll leave you with the last word. 

To the original poster of this thread, I'd like to reiterate congratulations on your fantastic grades, I'm positive you will do just fine come OCI time. Please google the firms you're interested in and reach out to the Windsor students there, they'll be able to paint you a more accurate picture regarding the recruitment process. 

You can't really call Windsor's law program new. It was founded in 1965, as you say, but that's just 6 years younger than Western's law faculty. Similarly, Ottawa was found in 1953, making it barely a decade older. At this point all of these law schools have had over half a century to establish their reputations. The young law school defence may work for Lakehead, but it's just not a valid one for schools that have been around for nearly as long as Newfoundland and Labrador have been provinces. 

We wouldn't say we shouldn't judge Newfoundland because it's a new province. 

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50 minutes ago, CanadianJD27 said:

You raise valid points, some I agree with, and some I'll have to disagree with (obviously I'm biased here as it's my school). As Windsor Law's student body is much smaller than other schools (~120-130 compared to U of T for example at ~200), not to mention the program is newer compared to others (I believe the law school only opened around 1965), I'm not sure if you can compare the absolute numbers, as there may simply be more U of T/McGill applicants due to the larger student body (or even larger group of interested students). I also wonder how the bilingual & Common Law/Civil Law certification from McGill may boost acceptances for SCC clerkships from McGill students (if at all) as another poster commented. But of course, I certainly recognise that U of T is a top ranked law school not just in Canada but really around the world. That being said, however, when our applicants are consistently landing positions on Bay Street and in top US firms, when our students are being selected for and excelling in coveted moot court competitions like the Oxford IP Moot, NationalLaw Meet, Hicks Morley, OTLA , and other such opportunities, I will have to respectfully disagree that there is any real "Windsor discount." 

Statistically, yes the entrance requirements to Windsor Law are lower, and perhaps that's a symptom of a new school opening and trying to attract new students, but to be honest, I find it troubling that the stats are lower and would like to see it raised comparable to say Western and Queens. I agree though that the school has room for improvement, as does any program, and I'm not arguing that Lowry>Lebron, but I respectfully disagree that there's a "discount" or any "stigma" from Windsor students. So as the "little guy" I'd argue that sending students three years in a row (as per the article) to the SCC, not to mention building an LLM Program, JD/MBA, JD/MSW, and consistently placing students in highly coveted summer/articling/and associate level positions indicates that we're doing quite fine. Ultimately though we'll agree to disagree - I'll leave you with the last word. 

To the original poster of this thread, I'd like to reiterate congratulations on your fantastic grades, I'm positive you will do just fine come OCI time. Please google the firms you're interested in and reach out to the Windsor students there, they'll be able to paint you a more accurate picture regarding the recruitment process. 

It's not that there's a "stigma" to Windsor students or a Windsor discount - I'm arguing the opposite.  It's just that they are what they are.  They're more Lowry and less Lebron. And that's clear from the entrance stats.  Nothing wrong with that - and what's true in general of Windsors student isn't likely to be true of all of them, perhaps the op is a Lebron.

As for your other points, the school is more than 50 years old - The modern UofT faculty of law was only accredited in 1958, 7 years before Windsor opened.  So "new" school is a bit of a stretch.  As for UofT having a larger student body, I agree, but recall, I did do a rough and ready adjustment for that.  You're probably right that mcGill benefits from a Quebec factor, but still Windsor is well below what you might expect.

The key point is that people, where biglaw employers or the SCC are ultimately hiring people not schools.  If you're a Lebron James, no one cares where you went to school, they want you.  By virtue of its higher admission standards, UofT is likely to crank out more Lebrons, but that's not a function of it being a better school or it's "reputation" it's a function of having higher admission standards.  To torture the basketball analogy if one team always has the first pick (analogous to higher admission standards) it's more likely to crank out hall of famers than a team that always picks 10th (in theory, at least - there have been some duds drafted #1), but you wouldn't attribute the success of those players to that team being good or a bias in favour of players from that team, you'd attribute it to their being better players - that's why they were drafted first (had higher admission stats).  

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1 hour ago, CanadianJD27 said:

As Windsor Law's student body is much smaller than other schools (~120-130 compared to U of T for example at ~200), not to mention the program is newer compared to others (I believe the law school only opened around 1965)

Quick fact check: 

Windsor's class is 245 students according to the 2016-17 prospectus, 85 of whom are in the dual program. I know the dual used to be ~60 students a few years ago, so the class might've been a bit smaller in the recent past. But I don't see 120-130. http://www.uwindsor.ca/law/525/2015-prospectus 

Edited by kiamia
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3 hours ago, maximumbob said:

Look at that story, because it actually tends to refute your statement. Since 1986, Windsor has had 6 SCC clerks. By way of contrast, in 2013 alone, the SCC hired 6 clerks from McGill.

Now the SCC hires 27 clerks a year (and presume it did back in the day too, but I could be wrong).  Until recently there were 16 Canadian law schools. So, you might imagine, if the SCC picked students more or less evenly from Canadian law schools, that Windsor might have averaged 1 SCC clerk a year for the past 30 years (yes, strictly speaking, it should be 1.6 or so, but let's adjust for Windsor's relatively small size and the fact that the SCC probably makes a point of ensuring that clerks from accross Canada are represented). It has not. (it's actually averaged about 0.2)

Now, you have to be careful to read too much into that. It may be that people who go to Windsor have different interests than those who go to UofT or McGill - maybe the latter two attract more academics, the former attracts more practicing lawyers. But, it certainly might be read as suggesting that at the exalted levels of the SCC there is a "Windsor" discount. 

I think the answer is more prosaic - the talent pool at Windsor tends to be shallower. 

To come back to my basketball analogy, the best player on both Toronto and Cleveland are both all-stars. But, with all due respect to DeMar, James is the better of the two players and has the better claim to be MVP. Big law hires allstars, the SCC hires MVPS. 

I do agree with you that the industry doesn't have a particularly negative view of Windsor the law school. It's a perfectly good school and I know a number of great lawyers that have come out of it. But it attracts a "weaker" (measured by undergrad performance, LSAT and, often, soft factors) group of students than, say, UofT or Osgoode (and I emphasize this is true as a group, not of any one student at Windsor). There is a risk of big fish/small pond syndrome. Maybe the best student at Windsor is a Derozan. Which is to say, the industry doesn't have a negative view of Windsor, just Windsor's top grads aren't "quite" as impressive as, say, Mcgill's or UofT's - the James of the world. 

Now, while it may be true that, on average Windsor's top students are Derozan's rather than James, there is no reason to expect that to be true of the op. After all, sometimes someone you expect to be a Derozan ends up as a James (Kobe Bryant, for example, was drafted 13th overall, had one of the greatest careers in history and is a mortal lock for the hall of fame). If the Op wants to clerk at the SCC, apply. Certainly so far, his (her) grades are such that he would likely be seriously considered.  

FYI: the SCC hired 36 this, instead of 27, and of the 36, nine came from U of T. 

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As for the debate over Windsor, this is a bit silly, since the objective evidence is quite clear. About 13% of Windsor students received job offers in the Toronto recruit this past year (http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Recruitment-Special.pdf). That number is lower than every school tracked except McGill, Ottawa, and Dalhousie, schools which are situated in other major cities and almost certainly have far lower participation rates in the Toronto recruit. mb already provided clerkship statistics. 

The point I am making is that OP is so high up in that 13% that he is almost certainly going to get an offer in the Toronto recruit (I would reckon he gets numerous ones). There just aren't firms that have the selectivity of the OCA or the SCC, which means if you come at the top of your class at a Canadian law school, you are pretty set in terms of the recruit. 

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1 minute ago, Ambit said:

As for the debate over Windsor, this is a bit silly, since the objective evidence is quite clear. About 13% of Windsor students received job offers in the Toronto recruit this past year (http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Recruitment-Special.pdf). That number is lower than every school tracked except McGill, Ottawa, and Dalhousie, schools which are situated in other major cities and almost certainly have far lower participation rates in the Toronto recruit. mb already provided clerkship statistics. 

The point I am making is that OP is so high up in that 13% that he is almost certainly going to get an offer in the Toronto recruit (I would reckon he gets numerous ones). There just aren't firms that have the selectivity of the OCA or the SCC, which means if you come at the top of your class at a Canadian law school, you are pretty set in terms of the recruit. 

Am I OP? or the other individuals? 

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2 minutes ago, Buckets123 said:

Am I OP? or the other individuals? 

Oh sorry (actual) OP. I meant the person with near straight A's. 
 

As for you, have a good answer for the one bad grade and you should be fine, since judging by Windsor's curve you are also well within that frame.

Edited by Ambit

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2 minutes ago, Ambit said:

Oh sorry (actual) OP. I meant the person with near straight A's. 
 

As for you, have a good answer for the one bad grade and you should be fine, since judging by Windsor's curve you are also well within that frame.

Thank you for clarifying. 

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49 minutes ago, kiamia said:

Quick fact check: 

Windsor's class is 245 students according to the 2016-17 prospectus, 85 of whom are in the dual program. I know the dual used to be ~60 students a few years ago, so the class might've been a bit smaller in the recent past. But I don't see 120-130. http://www.uwindsor.ca/law/525/2015-prospectus 

Thanks! I was trying to ballpark more so to the Single JD Program alone, but good call.

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On 6/1/2017 at 10:26 AM, litigationstation said:

So on the note of Windsor, I wonder if anyone can say whether or not the grades from Windsor are looked at differently than from other Ontario schools. I was very excited to finish this year with:

Constitutional: A+

Contracts: A

Property: A-

Torts: A-

Crim: A-

Legal Research/Writing: B

I had some people saying to take that success with a grain of salt when applying to OCI's and summer positions because they're from Windsor and not another Ontario school. I'm just wondering how much, if at all, that will effect job prospects and OCI success. I realize this is a difficult question to answer but if any former or current Windsor law students have some insight it would be greatly appreciated.

Is it just me that thinks these grades are very good, but definitely NOT medallist or top of the class? Based on when I was in law school, to be a medallist/top of the class/Deans Lister you basically needed straight As/A+s and no B anythings. 3 A-s are good but not top of the class good to my thinking - for every A-, there were a couple of As and A+s I would think. Not to say this person won't have every success or has anything to worry about, but I was surprised to hear people say this is "all star" or "top of the class" because in my class, it wouldn't have been, especially with one B.

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Also, I have definitely noticed an anti-Windsor bias. It came up a lot when I was clerking. Windsor applications got less respect than U of T or Osgoode applications for sure. I have also heard negative comments about Windsor at firm and bar events - it surprised me at first.

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7 minutes ago, providence said:

Is it just me that thinks these grades are very good, but definitely NOT medallist or top of the class? Based on when I was in law school, to be a medallist/top of the class/Deans Lister you basically needed straight As/A+s and no B anythings. 3 A-s are good but not top of the class good to my thinking - for every A-, there were a couple of As and A+s I would think. Not to say this person won't have every success or has anything to worry about, but I was surprised to hear people say this is "all star" or "top of the class" because in my class, it wouldn't have been, especially with one B.

Only if the curve is very soft. Eyeballing the Windsor curve I would guess Op is between top 10 and top 5 percent. "top of the class" was a poor choice of words on my part. 

The number of times I've heard recruiters say they ignore the non black letter courses makes me think that B will not matter. 

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