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killyourdarlings

How did you decide to become a lawyer? Undergraduate advice needed

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Hello. I've been lurking on this forum for a while, but I actually have a question of my own this time. 

I will be starting my first year of undergrad next year at Queen's University and I have absolutely no idea what to do, so, I am here looking for advice. 

My questions are as follow: Did you have some kind of passionate eureka moment in which you decided you would become a lawyer? Or did you just critically assess your situation and concluded that law school was the best overall option for you? Did you always want to be a lawyer or did it occur to you later on in your studies? 

I’m aware that at my age I have a lot of time to think, and planning on getting into law school itself is unsafe, but I absolutely cannot function without structure. I kind of need a plan at all times. Because of this I have outlined two different academic routes that I can try and pursue. More specifically, I am very much interested in being either a lawyer or a psychologist. I’m aware both of these careers are extremely hard to pursue, and because of this I am scared out of my flipping mind. I see that they are placed very differently on the career spectrum, however I have a natural inclination to both, plus some other personal reasons for being interested in psychology.

With all of that being said, I have 4 enormous fears:

(a) I’m not sure my interest in law should exactly translate to the pursuit of a career in law? I am very much interested in legal philosophy, the relationship between minority groups and the legal system, and a bunch of other theoretical stuff that is (apparently) irrelevant to the actual practice of law. 

(b) The criteria and requirements for admission to grad school for psychology vs. law school appear to be quite different. If I do decide that I want to aim for a PhD in Psychology, I expect to be completely dedicated from day one. I would be trying to get as much research/lab experience as possible and volunteer in some kind of clinical setting. However, if I decide that I want to apply to law school I fear that I will regret not focusing more on attaining a high GPA and being involved in extracurricular activities around the school.

(c) I despise failure. I know that failure is unavoidable, and I’m about to contradict that statement, but I would like to avoid it at all costs. I don’t want to gun for law school and then realize I'm not competent enough to maintain a GPA high enough to actually get into law school. Then I will be left with trying to leverage my bachelor's degree in the job market. On-top of that, my mother and aunt are footing most of the bill for my education, so I really don’t want to let them down. 

(d) I don’t want to miss out on drunken university experiences because I am overly concerned about getting into grad/law school, however, I also don’t want to be 40 living in a tent wishing I had buckled up in university.

Any advice would be great, and If you've read through all of my teen angst, thank you! I have just about no clue what to do with my life :') 

Edited by killyourdarlings
Spelling error :(

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You can apply to law school with all of the requirements to pursue post-grad opportunities in Psychology.  If you are unsure at this point, it would be best to set yourself on the Psychology path, while trying to determine whether you would rather work as a lawyer.  The research/lab experience and volunteering experience would be as beneficial as other law school applicant's extracurriculars (which is to say, not all that beneficial).  If you are worried that you cannot achieve good marks in those courses on the Psychology path, well, there is no guarantee that you can get good enough marks in any discipline.  We shall not reintroduce the "Arts degrees are easier to get good marks in" discussion. 

Some other specific responses 

(c) there are tons of good careers that are not evident to someone in first year university.  I am in a great career that I never even considered as an undergrad or a law student.  As long as you work hard, I think it would be fairly difficult to be completely bust when it comes to a good career.

(d) those are not the two choices.  There is time for escapades and work.  Balance is essential, and your life will require you to figure out how to balance.   

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This isn't at all answering your questions per se, but if I have one piece of advice, it would be: enjoy yourself. By all means, get a good GPA, do your extra-curriculars, work hard, develop good academic habits, and have fun--the latter is not mutually exclusive from any of the former. You will change a lot in 4 years. That's part of life. You might discover something you have no idea at this particular epoch that you absolutely love.

Sure, upon self-reflection, there were times I wish I had hunkered-down a bit more during my undergraduate degree, but that's also kind of part-and-parcel of the whole experience--I don't foresee any 40 year-old tent-dwelling in my future. That said, I'm not coming from the "perfect potential law-student" perspective. I am, after all, a 0L for this upcoming September after finally being admitted. I've been out of my undergrad for a reasonable amount of time. Would I necessarily change the way things went for me? Not at all.

Seriously, enjoy your undergrad. The (proverbial) shit starts to hit the fan a lot sooner than you'd like to believe fresh out of highschool (or late-teens, whatever...)--those four years fly by. Be serious about your work, but as with most things, it's all about balance.

Also, as a tangential piece of practical advice: go to office hours. Professors are scary, but the vast majority are ridiculously helpful. That's one thing I wish I realised sooner.

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34 minutes ago, Adrian said:

You can apply to law school with all of the requirements to pursue post-grad opportunities in Psychology.  If you are unsure at this point, it would be best to set yourself on the Psychology path, while trying to determine whether you would rather work as a lawyer.  The research/lab experience and volunteering experience would be as beneficial as other law school applicant's extracurriculars (which is to say, not all that beneficial).  If you are worried that you cannot achieve good marks in those courses on the Psychology path, well, there is no guarantee that you can get good enough marks in any discipline.  We shall not reintroduce the "Arts degrees are easier to get good marks in" discussion. 

Some other specific responses 

(c) there are tons of good careers that are not evident to someone in first year university.  I am in a great career that I never even considered as an undergrad or a law student.  As long as you work hard, I think it would be fairly difficult to be completely bust when it comes to a good career.

(d) those are not the two choices.  There is time for escapades and work.  Balance is essential, and your life will require you to figure out how to balance.   

Thanks for the quick reply. I hope I didn't imply that arts degrees are lesser than ~whatever other degree. I think I will heed your advice try to follow the psychology path for now and put more thought into being a lawyer. From my personal experience a lot of the people I know applying to law school have some kind of extracurricular in model parliament or in some kind of pre-law society thingy, so I wasn't sure how research experience would look in comparison to others. But, if you think that it would be equal to any other extracurricular that would be awesome. I'd get the best of both worlds that way. 

And I'm glad you're in a career you like. I haven't really put much thought into other careers because I kept telling myself throughout high-school I would do something Psychology-related, but I'll try to look out for some other things as the years go by. And yeah I agree balance  is key. I'm mainly scared to do something and then regret forfeiting the other tbh. I think I'll try to make some kind of schedule where I can study and party, with studying being a bit more of a priority. Thanks for taking the time to respond, this actually helps :~ )

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44 minutes ago, piscerainfada said:

This isn't at all answering your questions per se, but if I have one piece of advice, it would be: enjoy yourself. By all means, get a good GPA, do your extra-curriculars, work hard, develop good academic habits, and have fun--the latter is not mutually exclusive from any of the former. You will change a lot in 4 years. That's part of life. You might discover something you have no idea at this particular epoch that you absolutely love.

Sure, upon self-reflection, there were times I wish I had hunkered-down a bit more during my undergraduate degree, but that's also kind of part-and-parcel of the whole experience--I don't foresee any 40 year-old tent-dwelling in my future. That said, I'm not coming from the "perfect potential law-student" perspective. I am, after all, a 0L for this upcoming September after finally being admitted. I've been out of my undergrad for a reasonable amount of time. Would I necessarily change the way things went for me? Not at all.

Seriously, enjoy your undergrad. The (proverbial) shit starts to hit the fan a lot sooner than you'd like to believe fresh out of highschool (or late-teens, whatever...)--those four years fly by. Be serious about your work, but as with most things, it's all about balance.

Also, as a tangential piece of practical advice: go to office hours. Professors are scary, but the vast majority are ridiculously helpful. That's one thing I wish I realised sooner.

Thanks! I didn't expect someone to answer every single one of my questions, there are a lot floating in there after all. I appreciate you answering what you can. Anyways: I want to have fun, I really do lol. You're definitely right that fun and hard-work are not mutually exclusive. I've believed that for so long that I wasn't really sure how to handle university next year since everybody says it's supposed to be the best years of your life and all that stuff. I also wanted to avoid my parents paying a bunch of $ for me not to succeed, that would really suck. I think I just have to get over this and force myself to go out and have fun?? Also GL in law school next year.

Thanks for this and giving me a different perspective. Are office hours a time slot that you can just walk in and throw a bunch of questions at the prof? Because that's my idea of it, and if that is true then I'll surely go to office hours. Thanks for the help! 

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No "a-ha!" Eureka moment.  I remember watching LA Law back in the day as a kid (thus dating myself - think of it as Suits from the 1980s) thinking that looked like a kind of cool job.  So law was always my plan, despite not knowing a huge amount about the real life practice of law.  In university you have to take an undergrad, and I was convinced to take a "practical" degree in the Sciences.  My marks weren't stellar so I thought law school might be beyond me, so I dedicated myself to my science courses.  I got a job in a northern community in my field and I quickly went "what the hell am I doing?!?" and quickly signed up for the LSAT.  With a strong LSAT and a slight uptick in my marks I was accepted to law school and off I went.

I know going to university can be kind of scary and exciting, but don't get too worked up about long range plans.  Take courses that line you up for psychology, and just worry about getting good marks for your first year.  You have several years to sort out your long-term career plans.

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1 hour ago, killyourdarlings said:

My questions are as follow: Did you have some kind of passionate eureka moment in which you decided you would become a lawyer? Or did you just critically assess your situation and concluded that law school was the best overall option for you? Did you always want to be a lawyer or did it occur to you later on in your studies? 

Like you, I was initially interested in the philosophical side of the law. Coming out of high school, I had a vague idea that I wanted to be a lawyer, but ended up majoring in business, and taking plenty of law-related courses on the side and networking with law students and professors. I would suggest majoring in what you feel most passionate about, which seems to be psychology, and taking advantage of the plentiful networking opportunities you will have in undergrad to learn more about the law from people who work in it.

You are correct in that you should enjoy your undergrad, particularly your first year. Join a few clubs that interest you; I think Model United Nations or Model Parliament are great shouts to meet new people. Balancing a strong GPA and volunteering on the side with a few extracurriculars should not be a problem with good time management. 

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4 minutes ago, killyourdarlings said:

I also wanted to avoid my parents paying a bunch of $ for me not to succeed, that would really suck.

That's an incredibly common-place feeling, I imagine. Truth is though, they're your parents. I doubt your "success" (however you perceive that), is as important to them as your happiness. You seem like you're asking the correct questions--which is more than most (certainly more than I ever did).

7 minutes ago, killyourdarlings said:

Are office hours a time slot that you can just walk in and throw a bunch of questions at the prof?

At the risk of totally derailing this thread (before it even starts); yes, in a sense. I would suggest you not wait until you've had that first poor mark, and don't go in unprepared. Know exactly what you want to talk about. Know the questions you want to ask. Have as much knowledge about what you're discussing as you possibly can, even if you don't comprehend it fully. Professors are far more likely to: 1) acknowledge that you've put work in (which they like, and are thus more likely to help you), and 2) remember who you are (for any potential letters of reference or Master's degree work in the future).

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4 hours ago, killyourdarlings said:

Thanks for the quick reply. I hope I didn't imply that arts degrees are lesser than ~whatever other degree. I think I will heed your advice try to follow the psychology path for now and put more thought into being a lawyer. From my personal experience a lot of the people I know applying to law school have some kind of extracurricular in model parliament or in some kind of pre-law society thingy, so I wasn't sure how research experience would look in comparison to others. But, if you think that it would be equal to any other extracurricular that would be awesome. I'd get the best of both worlds that way. 

And I'm glad you're in a career you like. I haven't really put much thought into other careers because I kept telling myself throughout high-school I would do something Psychology-related, but I'll try to look out for some other things as the years go by. And yeah I agree balance  is key. I'm mainly scared to do something and then regret forfeiting the other tbh. I think I'll try to make some kind of schedule where I can study and party, with studying being a bit more of a priority. Thanks for taking the time to respond, this actually helps :~ )

You didn't infer that arts degrees are easier. It's a debate that keeps coming back on this forum and it's been done to death.  Wanted to nip it in the bud. 

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To reiterate above posts, balance is key.

Change is inevitable. You're going to meet people who will alter you. From what I gather, you like planning so change may not be ideal, but it is inherently valuable. Take it in stride while keeping your center. 

Take it easy, pal. Do what you're passionate about, work hard, stay happy, and keep the grades up in case you do decide to one day apply. You'll do gr8. 

 

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I was watching a lot of Suits around the same time I decided I didn't want to be a psychologist. Prior to that, I wanted to be a pharmacist, and that plan went out the window after I realized that chemistry sucks.

I think that most of the other things that I would add have already been said. Be confident. Extracurriculars are mostly important in what they teach you about yourself. That translates into what you can write about- a personal statement that reads like a list of achievements is a shitty personal statement. What did you gain from those experiences? I gained a lot from student government, and never touched anything explicitly pre-law, myself.

The other thing- have fun! I know that what everyone's saying probably won't dent that cloud of stress that you're in right now, but enjoy it. You'll do better in all venues for it.

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I think if you ask numerous law students , you probably get lots of different response since everyone has his/her own story to tell. 

 

I went to Law school because I found I sucks in sciences in general.  My undergraduate was dark and gloomy , because I am really confused, and  unsatisfied with the material I study in undergraduate. I read some Socratic philosophy online , or some psychology textbook in library, and I like those thing a lot.  I want to find something that can cover those two things up.  Eventually I just found out law cover it all, it's  full of wisdom, humanity and numerous  intellectual opinion derived from various judicial scholars. The most favorable thing about law is that it doesn't involved any complex math or science, but it does require one to constantly sit there  and study or at least most of time.. Law does fulfills my intellectual curiosity.  (But that vary from person to person)

I highly suggest you go and dig out psychology textbooks and law textbooks and see which you like it and explore where your interests really lies. Among all the psychology textbooks, I actually like quite a bit psychology books and I probably like cognitive psychology the most.  Among all philosophical teaching, I probably like Socratic philosophy more.  he is more intelligent  and more down to earth.  But I still have to say philosophy or psychology are incomparable to  law, law is more full of wisdom. , in philosophy or psychology,  you probably might  found a few of you liking. But in law, You can probably found a mountain of   law books, that are just impressive.  That's  full of intellectual discussions and wisdom, that can fulfill intellectual thirsty or curiosity and it also has more direct benefit and practical function. You know law , law not only can protect yourself legally.  You might also be able to practice law.

 Law school also has bridging courses or program like philosophy of law , and that's probably not typical main stream for law students to pursue in Asia law school in master level  because of its practical function or targeting market. But  if  for or research level, you can be a professor with any area of interest. , 

 

Read more textbooks of each discipline and found where you interest actually lies so that you probably be more clear  what you shall pursue next.

Edited by akulamasusu

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(a) I’m not sure my interest in law should exactly translate to the pursuit of a career in law? I am very much interested in legal philosophy, the relationship between minority groups and the legal system, and a bunch of other theoretical stuff that is (apparently) irrelevant to the actual practice of law. 

 

Legal philosophy  is (apparently) irrelevant to the actual practice of law and Legal philosophy is more relevant to a few professor area of research interest.

 

(b) The criteria and requirements for admission to grad school for psychology vs. law school appear to be quite different. If I do decide that I want to aim for a PhD in Psychology, I expect to be completely dedicated from day one. I would be trying to get as much research/lab experience as possible and volunteer in some kind of clinical setting. However, if I decide that I want to apply to law school I fear that I will regret not focusing more on attaining a high GPA and being involved in extracurricular activities around the school.

PHd program is not as easy as one think, PhD in whatever, law , psychology are equally challenging and time consuming. Becoming a professor is also need to get go through fierce competition. Paper, critique, research volume, students feedback or liking. How well one deliver and instruct those material. or connection. There seems two  professions. But if cannot decide right now, just apply law school. If you are really want to be a professor, just apply LLM and SJD afterward.

 

(c) I despise failure. I know that failure is unavoidable, and I’m about to contradict that statement, but I would like to avoid it at all costs. I don’t want to gun for law school and then realize I'm not competent enough to maintain a GPA high enough to actually get into law school. Then I will be left with trying to leverage my bachelor's degree in the job market. On-top of that, my mother and aunt are footing most of the bill for my education, so I really don’t want to let them down. 

 

 My friend receives lots of A in law school in third year, but we don't give a ..crxp... Because he doesn't  have money to study abroad in United States, grade means crxp in Asia law school. It may reflect how well one learn in school momentarily. That's it....I really think there is something more important or valuable such as your life, your health, your soul mate, your mom. your whatever  than grade.

Some people go to law school or undergraduate with family responsibility on their shoulder, a few people go to law school with blindness. They somehow manage to go through that or law school. Some people who go to law school are physically handicapped on a wheelchair and make it to medalist.  Some people go to school need to take care of their sick grandpa or grandma. Everyone has their thing to go through, and some people may even have more to go through.

 What's wrong of being a failure, Failure is also part of life, there is nothing wrong to fail sometimes. and no one get it all. It's just totally wrong if one not learn to accept it. Sorry I have been a jerk....But that's how I feel.  Those failure can be built for the next wave of success. One can always learn something or mistakes from failure, so that they can improve next time.and be closer with success..  You just have to be yourself and know where you are going. That's more important.

If everything not works out, I am sure at least some anonymous  law schools  will work out. There are just so many thing to do with life, and so many meaningful things in life.  Relax my friend. . You know what you are doing and select a major that you really like. Thing will work out. If thing does not work out, there is always a way.

just relax.

(PS: I seriously didn't know I would go to law school until after I graduated from university and worked for a number of years.  I had hard time finding what I liked in school and  explored afterward. I just knew I liked witty philosophy or systematic analysis of humanized psychology, I dislike engineering math or  science, but I didn't know what would fit those thing perfectly until I found law. Law incorporate those thing perfectly. In addition, law had its  distinctively practical function and  applications and just benefit me in many ways compared to philosophy or psychology.)

 

 

(d) I don’t want to miss out on drunken university experiences because I am overly concerned about getting into grad/law school, however, I also don’t want to be 40 living in a tent wishing I had 

 

I think you don't have to miss out those things ,just how frequently you indulge in those things. You just don't have to do those thing too frequently and only on occasional basis

Edited by akulamasusu

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Reiterating some of the things others have said, work hard, enjoy your undergrad, take courses you actually enjoy and extracurriculars you're passionate about. I began undergrad in the physical sciences, graduated in philosophy, and am now entering law school in September. I took courses from all different subjects. I also had a ton of extracurriculars, and while almost none were pre-law related, they represented my true interests and I thoroughly enjoyed all of them. I was able to tie all the parts of my application together and convey that in my personal statement, even though my interests looked so different at first glance. The truth is that there is no one set path to law school and your interests and habits change along the way. I did not have everything figured out in my first year of undergrad and I still don't, but along the way I figured out what I enjoy and can't stand, how I learn and study best, and my strengths that I lean on.  And all that seemed to align with a career in law, something that I was always interested in but never seriously considered till recently. Don't stress too much about the future right now, you're still early on and you should just focus on working hard and figuring out what you like while allowing yourself to take breaks and enjoy life.

If you have further questions feel free to pm me!

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On ‎16‎/‎05‎/‎2017 at 3:10 PM, killyourdarlings said:

Hello. I've been lurking on this forum for a while, but I actually have a question of my own this time. 

I will be starting my first year of undergrad next year at Queen's University and I have absolutely no idea what to do, so, I am here looking for advice. 

My questions are as follow: Did you have some kind of passionate eureka moment in which you decided you would become a lawyer? Or did you just critically assess your situation and concluded that law school was the best overall option for you? Did you always want to be a lawyer or did it occur to you later on in your studies? 

I’m aware that at my age I have a lot of time to think, and planning on getting into law school itself is unsafe, but I absolutely cannot function without structure. I kind of need a plan at all times. Because of this I have outlined two different academic routes that I can try and pursue. More specifically, I am very much interested in being either a lawyer or a psychologist. I’m aware both of these careers are extremely hard to pursue, and because of this I am scared out of my flipping mind. I see that they are placed very differently on the career spectrum, however I have a natural inclination to both, plus some other personal reasons for being interested in psychology.

With all of that being said, I have 4 enormous fears:

(a) I’m not sure my interest in law should exactly translate to the pursuit of a career in law? I am very much interested in legal philosophy, the relationship between minority groups and the legal system, and a bunch of other theoretical stuff that is (apparently) irrelevant to the actual practice of law. 

(b) The criteria and requirements for admission to grad school for psychology vs. law school appear to be quite different. If I do decide that I want to aim for a PhD in Psychology, I expect to be completely dedicated from day one. I would be trying to get as much research/lab experience as possible and volunteer in some kind of clinical setting. However, if I decide that I want to apply to law school I fear that I will regret not focusing more on attaining a high GPA and being involved in extracurricular activities around the school.

(c) I despise failure. I know that failure is unavoidable, and I’m about to contradict that statement, but I would like to avoid it at all costs. I don’t want to gun for law school and then realize I'm not competent enough to maintain a GPA high enough to actually get into law school. Then I will be left with trying to leverage my bachelor's degree in the job market. On-top of that, my mother and aunt are footing most of the bill for my education, so I really don’t want to let them down. 

(d) I don’t want to miss out on drunken university experiences because I am overly concerned about getting into grad/law school, however, I also don’t want to be 40 living in a tent wishing I had buckled up in university.

Any advice would be great, and If you've read through all of my teen angst, thank you! I have just about no clue what to do with my life :') 

Look, don't think about undergrad as a stepping stone to something else.    Think of it as an opportunity to figure out who you are, to explore new things, to find out what you like, what you don't like, what you want to do with your life, to meet new people, to explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldly go where no man has gone before. [Hmm, that sounds familiar, did I lift that from some place?]  There's nothing sadder than some first year undergrad who has his whole life planned out already (both because he'll probably be disappointed and because he doesn't know what opportunities he's missing).

Go to school, have fun and explore different things.  Work hard and get good grades, sure, because no matter what you choose to do, having the skills you will pick up from working and thinking hard to get good grades will serve you well.  But, if you're reasonably bright, you should be able to go to school, get involved in things that interest you, get rip-roaring drunk (on occasion) and still get good grades - those experiences are not mutually exclusive.  (And if you're not reasonably bright, that's good too, law school and a PHD might not be your thing, my advice still stands). 

Some people have a "eureka" moment when they fall in love with the law (or, at least, they fall in love with the perception of the law).  Some people don't.  Some people stumble into law school because they've got a BA and what else are they going to do?  Some people (Yo!) stumble into law because it seems interesting and they want to defer reality for a couple of year.  Some people go to law school because they can't get into med school, or because they learn that having a PHD isn't a seal of employability (neither, to be sure, is law school, although it's a whole lot more marketable than some PHDs), or because their old man's a lawyer or because they think they can make a lot of money.  

And you know what, you don't know what's going to happen in the future, so don't worry too much about it.  Had you told 18 year-old me that in a couple of decades I'd be a tax lawyer, I'd have stared at you blankly and said "wat dat?"  Do the best you can, keep your options open, and see how things play out.  There is no one path to success.

 

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Look, OP, you can plan things out all you want, but you won't ever really know what life is until you discover the magic of Stages. Though, I'd start at Ale and work your way up to it. 

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32 minutes ago, leafs_law said:

Look, OP, you can plan things out all you want, but you won't ever really know what life is until you discover the magic of Stages. Though, I'd start at Ale and work your way up to it. 

http://gph.is/1maiw0M

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3 hours ago, leafs_law said:

Look, OP, you can plan things out all you want, but you won't ever really know what life is until you discover the magic of Stages. Though, I'd start at Ale and work your way up to it. 

That's not magic - that the STI you contracted on the dance floor.

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2 hours ago, barelylegal said:

That's not magic - that the STI you contracted on the dance floor.

How did you not even mention this post when we were having coffee, LOL. 

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On 5/16/2017 at 4:39 PM, killyourdarlings said:

I think I just have to get over this and force myself to go out and have fun?? 

That's not really how fun works.

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