Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
grapefruit18

programs with a focus on anti-oppressive politics

Recommended Posts

No.

 

I'm using "inaccessible" to mean that it's easier to get into law school if you're rich, white, straight, male, cisgendered, able-bodied, and English-speaking than if you deviate from that norm (I gather from your other posts that we disagree), but I'm also stipulating that this belief is still a relatively fringe political view which many people don't share.

 

Ah, well I agree with the concept (for the most part, of course it's easier to get into an English speaking law school if you speak English, it should be), I think we disagree on the meaning of inaccessible, though. 

 

A middle-class white kid and a black woman with schizophrenia both walk into a bank seeking a $50,000 line of credit. Which one is likelier to receive it?

 

Considering financial aid, bursaries, and most PSLOCs are applied for through the internet - I'd say both are likely to receive it. I'm not sure that stands well as a barrier. However, even if it did, I would also say that it's perfectly fair for financial aid and law schools themselves to restrict students to those likely to succeed. Someone with a very serious mental health issue is not always likely to succeed. Again, I disagree that this rises to the level of "inaccessible". 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The problem is, there's no visibility for the people who just aren't able to go, for whom it's out of the question. There's no way to say "the majority of people that take the stairs everyday, even though its a bit of work" when you have no idea how many people may never even set foot on, the stairs, for sake of analogy, because they know they won't be able to climb up. Who will never be able to get that line of credit, to return to what Yogurt Baron's said above. You don't know who has never had the resources available to them. Inaccessibility is so much broader than just financial. 

 

I think it's a bit unfair of you to say you meant finances when I asked what you meant and now to say "well it's so much more, since my first argument fell apart". 

 

Regardless, what else is it? I'm legitimately curious as to what you think makes law school so inaccessible. If there are concrete things you can point to I'd love to learn. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, well I agree with the concept (for the most part, of course it's easier to get into an English speaking law school if you speak English, it should be), I think we disagree on the meaning of inaccessible, though. 

 

 

Considering financial aid, bursaries, and most PSLOCs are applied for through the internet - I'd say both are likely to receive it. I'm not sure that stands well as a barrier. However, even if it did, I would also say that it's perfectly fair for financial aid and law schools themselves to restrict students to those likely to succeed. Someone with a very serious mental health issue is not always likely to succeed. Again, I disagree that this rises to the level of "inaccessible". 

 

I think it's a bit unfair of you to say you meant finances when I asked what you meant and now to say "well it's so much more, since my first argument fell apart". 

 

Regardless, what else is it? I'm legitimately curious as to what you think makes law school so inaccessible. If there are concrete things you can point to I'd love to learn. 

That's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying finances are connected to everything—race, gender, disability etc, and that all of these contribute to accessibility. Check out the handy cartoon Kiamia posted, I don't really feel like educating some random person on the internet about information that is readily available with a quick google search. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

helpful kiamia, thank you

 

 

helpful kiamia, thank you

 

 

http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate

 

^ What the Fraggles are talking about, in handy cartoon form. 

 

I'm not sure this is what the fraggles are talking about, since grapefruit said law school was special. If the argument is simply "life is easier if you have a silver spoon inserted into your mouth at conception" then I can certainly agree, but grapefruit didn't see to be speaking about that when they said that in "inaccessible academic system these kinds of hegemonies of power are reborn"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure this is what the fraggles are talking about, since grapefruit said law school was special. If the argument is simply "life is easier if you have a silver spoon inserted into your mouth at conception" then I can certainly agree, but grapefruit didn't see to be speaking about that when they said that in "inaccessible academic system these kinds of hegemonies of power are reborn"

it's exactly what i'm talking about. inaccessible academic systems make it even more difficult for those who aren't privileged to succeed by making it inaccessible—academic systems contribute to the overall struggle by recreating barriers that show up in all sorts of social systems. law school, along with so many other social systems embody these principals. structuring a system so that it's nearly impossible to get into it if one isn't privileged is a hegemonic system of power.

Edited by grapefruit18
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying finances are connected to everything—race, gender, disability etc, and that all of these contribute to accessibility. Check out the handy cartoon Kiamia posted, I don't really feel like educating some random person on the internet about information that is readily available with a quick google search. 

 

Tell me again how you plan to bring your own viewpoint and perspective to the classroom? I'm sitting here hoping to further understand your position, and you're attempting to shut down discussion. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tell me again how you plan to bring your own viewpoint and perspective to the classroom? I'm sitting here hoping to further understand your position, and you're attempting to shut down discussion. 

My position has already been elaborated on, what more are you confused about? It's all been addressed in the comic and elsewhere online. I don't mean to shut down the discussion, I just feel like I'm repeating myself at this point.

Edited by grapefruit18

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A middle-class white kid and a black woman with schizophrenia both walk into a bank seeking a $50,000 line of credit. Which one is likelier to receive it?

The one who has a confirmation of enrollment.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My position has already been elaborated on, what more are you confused about? It's all been addressed in the comic and elsewhere online. I don't mean to shut down the discussion, I just feel like I'm repeating myself at this point.

 

If the comic is your viewpoint that's great, I agree. I just don't think you were very clear in your first statement. You made it sound as though law school is a special form of inaccessible - that's something I disagree with. In fact, I think law school is more accessible than many other education systems as well as many other parts of society. If your viewpoint really is just "generally, coming from means is good for your life outcomes" then yeah, I can get behind that. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think it's INaccessible. Even people who cant secure lines of credit have done it (http://lawstudents.ca/forums/topic/32768-rejected-for-loc-help/). But it's certainly less accessible - not everyone has the ability to (in the example of this intrepid LS.ca community member) work 3 jobs AND attend law school AND secure 1L, 2L and articling jobs. So you end up selecting out a lot of people with the least financial resources and creating an imbalance of perspectives. There will be a more silverspoon fellows in law school than the general populace. I also think that's why there are access categories and etc. for admissions, to try and correct for that a little. There should still be attendees from less privileged backgrounds, people in precarious financial situations, bleeding-heart Fraggles, and some ultra-conservatives on the far side, in all the schools. But certain people will gravitate towards certain schools, which is what the OP was asking. I'm sure other people can provide more information on just what schools, but if you end up in a less 'social justice-y' class, it's still not the end of the world. 

 

I already wrote my opinion on that and I'm too lazy to do it again so I'm just going to link it: http://lawstudents.ca/forums/topic/47319-western-v-windsor-help-me-its-complicated/page-2

Edited by kiamia
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://thewireless.co.nz/articles/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate

 

^ What the Fraggles are talking about, in handy cartoon form.

Some people have to work harder to get places. Sometimes that means jumping through more hoops. But that doesn't mean anything is inaccessible. Just because rich people have it easier doesn't mean everyone else has an insurmountable barrier to achieving their goals.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the comic is your viewpoint that's great, I agree. I just don't think you were very clear in your first statement. You made it sound as though law school is a special form of inaccessible - that's something I disagree with. In fact, I think law school is more accessible than many other education systems as well as many other parts of society. If your viewpoint really is just "generally, coming from means is good for your life outcomes" then yeah, I can get behind that. 

The comic is exactly what I've been putting forth, and I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to law school as an isolated incident of inaccessibility, just one that we are talking about in this context. Like I said, inaccessibility is financial, and is also connected to race, sexuality, gender, disability among other social intersections like represented in the comic (this is the "identity politics" thing that Yogurt and I were talking about before). I think education (along with healthcare, food, shelter, and all other necessities) is a right and should be free or made 100% affordable. Accessibility means breaking down the barriers that make systems like education, like law school in this case, difficult for those who are less privileged to engage with. When law school costs a shit ton of money to attend, it's just one aspect and one more barrier to this multi-faceted inaccessibility. 

Edited by grapefruit18

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The comic is exactly what I've been putting forth, and I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to law school as an isolated incident of inaccessibility, just one that we are talking about in this context. Like I said, inaccessibility is financial, and is also connected to race, sexuality, gender, disability among other social intersections like represented in the comic (this is the "identity politics" thing that Yogurt and I were talking about before). I think education (along with healthcare, food, shelter, and all other necessities) is a right and should be free or made 100% affordable. Accessibility means breaking down the barriers that make systems like education, like law school in this case, difficult for those who are less privileged to engage with. When law school costs a shit ton of money to attend, it's just one aspect and one more barrier to this multi-faceted inaccessibility. 

 

Other than tuition what other aspects of law school do you view as creating barriers? Not trolling - genuinely curious.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Yogurt Baron!

 

Thanks for your words of advice, and thanks for weighing in.

 

I'll clear a few things up...I think within any inaccessible academic system these kinds of hegemonies of power are reborn, but in some less so than in others depending on the students, classes offered, etc. I definitely intend to bring the lens I have wherever I go, partially because it's just a part of my consciousness at this point. And of course, wherever I go and whatever I do, because of this lens I'll be working to "take down the man" or whatever, even if it means shaking a few hands along the way haha.

 

Secondly, I certainly don't expect to find a law school geared entirely toward anti-oppressive politics, but I'm curious if there's anywhere in particular I should avoid, and anywhere in particular where profs/students are particularly passionate and interested in these issues. If anyone has info on the "Social Justice" focus at UO Law, please reach out! 

 

Honestly?  You should avoid any law school in that case because all of them, even the ones with more "social justice" courses, have many entitled, privileged students who do not give a rip about "hegemonies of power."  And I don't say that meaning to be negative - some of those people are actually my friends, though we disagree on lots.  I have actually been to and completed law school, unlike some of the people commenting, and you really do need the master's tools to dismantle the master's house.  Going in there talking the way you're talking would likely be counterproductive and would come across as pretty arrogant.  How can you make sweeping comments about law school and the law etc. when you haven't even gotten into law school yet?

 

I say this as someone who shares a lot of your values and views, but you are choosing an elitist, powerful career as opposed to being in the trenches doing community work, social activism, social work etc.  There are opportunities within this career to be in the trenches doing a lot of that, as I do every day, but you also need to know how to "speak truth to power" to be able to do anything useful for your clients, and you get that by learning the law and learning the quirks and personalities of judges and how to navigate that, etc. etc. etc. and to learn all of that, you need to shut up, learn the basics, demonstrate how smart and amazing you are while being humble and open to hearing from others, etc.  Now maybe you are all of that - I don't know you - but I get the sense you really don't know how law school and the legal profession work.  I really hope you're not intending to march into law school and start talking about anti-oppressive politics in every class and get upset when contract law teaches you the basis of contracts and not how broken social contracts oppress vulnerable people.... because that won't help you get the grades and the credibility you need to do anything with those views.

 

Also, the kind of law you say you want to practice doesn't really exist, and certainly not for a new call.  If you want to help the marginalized, it's going to be Legal Aid work in criminal, immigration or family/child apprehensions, or certain administrative tribunals.  Maybe if you are super-brilliant in black letter law and have enough resources, you can do some kind of international internship.  That's about it.   

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Briefly (because I foresee them giving an explanation and then twenty people piling on and then things getting rancorous and then me not wanting to come back): they're defining the term "inaccessible" differently from how someone not on the relatively-radical left would. And that's exactly the crux of the issue here. You're not going to find a law school---or any major institution, really---that just casually incorporates relatively-fringe political views into its curriculum. (And, again, I say this with love. I agree with the OP's views 100%. But just because I'm out on the political fringes too doesn't mean that I don't recognize that they're still the fringes, for now.)

 

 Because it wouldn't be useful to the day-to-day practise of law (from someone who also is very left-leaning.)

 

Also, I don't want to share too much of my background here and "out" myself, but it always makes me suspicious when people start talking in the language the OP used of anti-oppressive politics, hegemonies of power, etc.  I can't help but wonder how much oppression they've ever experienced.  I suspect that OP would consider me and my family people who have been oppressed if I shared my background.  I was the first person in my family to finish high school, let alone go to university, let alone go to law school. It wasn't supposed to be accessible to me.  I wanted to do it and I did it.  I wasn't about to create further barriers by talking in the way the OP did and further alienate myself. I wanted to fit in so that I could take advantage of the opportunity I was given and try to help others.  I don't have a lot of patience for people I perceive to be whining about what I perceive to be lesser disadvantages, and I am sure that is a failing of mine that I need to get over, but I am also sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was sort of referring to both, economics + identity politics go hand in hand, I just didn't want to push myself into that hurricane by plunging into a discussion on social location and positionality etc etc lmao. well, thank goodness for the allies!

 

???? Not necessarily.  This is definitely a huge overgeneralization.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No.

 

I'm using "inaccessible" to mean that it's easier to get into law school if you're rich, white, straight, male, cisgendered, able-bodied, and English-speaking than if you deviate from that norm (I gather from your other posts that we disagree), but I'm also stipulating that this belief is still a relatively fringe political view which many people don't share.

 

Law school student bodies are around 50-50 male women, so there isn't a particular disadvantage for women, white women anyway, who have benefitted massively from affirmative action.

 

It's easier to do most things if you are the above, law school included.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


  • Recent Posts

    • Cgpa: 3.2 (155 total credits) L2: 3.52 Lsat: 155 highest 4 month summer student internship at a law firm, visible minority, managed construction project, worked part time throughout undergrad in unrelated field.  BC resident Three great references. One is from a lawyer with 20 years experience stating I have experience fulfilling duties similar to that of an articling student   
    • I have applied to every school in Canada Cgpa: 3.2 (155 total credits) L2: 3.52 Lsat: 155 highest 4 month summer student internship at a law firm, visible minority, managed construction project, worked part time throughout undergrad in unrelated field. Filled out special facts for U of C and Part B for Osgoode discussing low gpa initially during undergrad. Three great references. One is from a lawyer with 20 years experience stating I have experience fulfilling duties similar to that of an articling student  Is there a chance I get in anywhere this cycle?
    • Hi,  I have taken the LSAT 3 times now, I had a 158 during my recent test. I have spent 1000s of hours studying.  I was born with Non-verbal learning disorder and disgraphia. These are having a direct impact on my ability to do the LSAT. In addition, my working memory is in the 4th percentile. I am looking for a tutor that understands disability theory, preferably has had experience teaching people with learning disorders    Thanks!     
    • Not a UOttawa student, but I was accepted to Osgoode this cycle. Law admissions in Ontario through OLSAS utilize a standardized GPA conversion formula based upon your grades received, the credit worth, and length of the classes you have taken across all years of undergraduate. This is called your CGPA, and it is the value you will see many prospective law students citing on this website. I would first recommend inputting your grades into a calculator like the one constructed by the creator of this site (link below) to see your CGPA, and facilitate making comparisons between accepted students and your current stats easier. Citing the Ontario Universities Application Centre (link also below): "OLSAS uses a 4.0 scale. Refer to the OLSAS Undergraduate Grading System Conversion Table to determine the grading scale used for each university that you attended/are attending. The law schools equate university work on the basis of the Ontario traditional academic year system. For universities operating in the semester system, 2 semesters are combined as the equivalent of an academic year (i.e., semesters 1 and 2 are combined for first year; semesters 3 and 4 for second year). Co-op semesters are grouped similarly." Note: Your CGPA is likely to be lower than your university GPA based on how the calculation is done.  https://lawapplicants.ca/grade You will also get L2 and B3 values, which means your CGPA for your most recent last 2 years, and best (highest grades) 3 years of undergrad. Some law schools utilize these values, but not necessarily all nor even most. Also, here is some information on how your CGPA is calculated differently than your university GPA.  https://www.ouac.on.ca/guide/olsas-gpa-calculations/
    • Same. I was planning to re-write it for the 2021 cycle and now that I am finally getting a decent score, the test date is not so certain anymore 😭

×
×
  • Create New...