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Why are people still applying to law school today?

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I don't mean to turn this into an ad hominem attack by any means. I'm merely an ignorant 0L, so when the general consensus of the thread is that you have some good points, I'm inclined to believe them.

 

That being said, you say that you graduated law school "back in 2009", and left the legal profession subsequently long ago. Seven years ago doesn't seem that long, but if you say you left long ago, you must have left shortly after graduating. Were your reasons because you didn't enjoy that field, or rather because you couldn't make a run of it?

(This isn't a status thing. I'm generally just curious about your circumstances.)

 

I am not going to be attending an Ontario school (which is the focus of your post, I know), and will be paying roughly half of Oz's tuition (pre books). I'm fully aware that jobs are competitive, but law is something that I think I can build a career from while remaining intellectually engaged. I'm also able to do it without racking up an unreasonable amount of debt. In short, I'm going because it's what I want to do, and I can do it without crippling my future.

 

As a side note, and completely legitimate question, as I haven't really thought about it before: why does it matter if Bond graduates are going to flood the market? Students educated at Canadian schools will be better qualified for the jobs that Bond graduates want.

 

Sorry this post is all over the place. I just wanted to give some more input and contribute to the discussion.

 

With regards to your question about bond students:  because it's fucking annoying when you're applying for a job only to know that you didn't get it because a Bond graduate did. Just found out that this happened to a good friend of mine who had decent grades from an Alberta school. 

 

I know the general consensus on this board is that going abroad for a legal education and intending to come back here isn't smart, but I'm starting to see more and more foreign degrees getting jobs here in vancouver and it's frustrating. 

Edited by JohnsonWest

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Ok. Lets consider reality for a second.  If you had a valuable brain in your skull you would be writing the next Angry Birds, founding the next Google, or succeeding at one of the million other things in which legitimately intelligent and creative people do that earns obscene amounts of money.  If you were one level below that you would have been a physician or some other medical professional who can bill the government instead of their clients. But, instead, like the rest of us who are "smart" but not smart,  you figured you'd do the next best thing.  You became a lawyer, and you couldn't even succeed at that.  Now you're yelling at people on the internet.

 

This is...really harsh. I also disagree that there's a hierarchy that goes "app inventor, doctor, lawyer". But, hearkening back to my earlier post (I, too, am not done), I do think ShirleysTemple (please tell me your name was somehow inspired by "Jeremy's iron") hits on something important here.

 

When I was first applying for law school - and I was no spring chicken - I literally didn't know what else existed. The only non-minimum-wage jobs I had ever heard of were the ones that people make TV shows about, plus "high school teacher", because I'd had some of those. The only options I knew of were:

 

1. doctor/lawyer

2. teacher

3. work at Banana Republic

4. collect welfare.

 

I wasn't good at math or science and I wasn't good with kids, so becoming a lawyer seemed like literally the only option in existence. Call me unusually sheltered if you want, but it's just my lived experience. Until I was in my mid-twenties, I hadn't put it together that other jobs existed. In my thirties, I discovered the profession I work in now---I had always known it existed, in theory, in that I knew that the tasks I now perform must be performed by somebody, but it never occurred to me that it was something you could just go to school for and then up and do. To this day, whenever I meet someone who wears a suit to work and who isn't a lawyer, my reaction is exactly what my dad's is, and what my dad's dad's before him was: I (at least mentally) cock my head slightly and say incredulously (or at least think), "How'd you get that job?" I was raised to think that you were a doctor or a lawyer or you worked at Tim Horton's or you went on welfare. To this day, I look at half the people on the Sunshine List and think, "How'd they get that job?" Who becomes city manager of a medium-sized town? Can you go to school for that? What about hospital CEOs? Do they have MBAs, or are they just doctors who were really good at office politics and worked their way up?

 

For some people, applying to law school is what you do because you're ignorant (I mean that without any pejorative connotation) and because it is the only brass ring they are aware of. And as much as the lawyers around here (rightly) shit on the "I want to be a doctor or a lawyer because then I can have a nice car" thing...some kids grow up having a reason to want a nice car and legitimately don't know how else to get it.

 

Vis. ST's "you couldn't even succeed at that" shot, I think that's mean and unwarranted. But I also think it's true that most attempts I've ever seen to criticize the legal market proceed from the premise of, "I thought we were all going to be superbillionaires, but actually, the worst 5% of students aren't living out that dream! We've been robbed!" And...no, you haven't. If you go to law school expecting anything, and it doesn't meet your expectations, that's on you for having expectations. Law school is just school. I majored in English in my undergrad; I didn't come out of it Shakespeare. I came out of it a guy who knows more about English than I used to. If you go to law school, the only reasonable expectation is that you'll come out knowing more about law than you used to. By whom were you promised a career? Jack McCoy?

 

You know what, I am not done. 

 

I don't even care how much I earn. I wholeheartedly enjoy going after people who have fucked someone else. I have the power to bankrupt them or force the sale of some of their things.  I wake up in the morning, grab a file, and I am like a dog on a bone all day.  People need to ask me to leave the office at the end of the day.

 

So you know what, thats why you failed.  You can't keep up to people like me. I love my job.  You could never do what I do, because you don't care. So its no surprise you're as synical as you are.

 

Again, harsh...but it reminds me of an argument I've had a million times. At this point, I will almost certainly never practice law for a living. A part of me still wants (and will always want) to go to law school, which is why I hang around here, fanning the flame, keeping the dream alive. And friends say, "You're a moron." (I have the best friends.) "Why invest $X in a law degree unless you're going to make at least $20X back?" Well...because it's not about the money? It's because sometimes someone in my family gets illegally evicted from their home for being the wrong race or having a partner of the wrong gender, and I'd love to be able to offer them more than a hug emoji - I'd love to be able to help them sue their landlord. Being a lawyer comes with a certain amount of social cachet - not in the "I get invited to the best cocktail parties" way, but in the "I can stand up for those in need, and people will listen to me, because people listen to lawyers" way. I'd love to become a lawyer, support myself with my day job, and run a small "practice" out of my den that offers pro bono advice to four people a year. That probably sounds unbelievably asinine to the OP, but there you have it. Go to law school to be guaranteed megabucks, it's not going to happen. Go to law school to learn some things that might help you help some people, it is going to happen. So really, it's just about what you want out of it.

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This is...really harsh. I also disagree that there's a hierarchy that goes "app inventor, doctor, lawyer". But, hearkening back to my earlier post (I, too, am not done), I do think ShirleysTemple (please tell me your name was somehow inspired by "Jeremy's iron") hits on something important here.

 

When I was first applying for law school - and I was no spring chicken - I literally didn't know what else existed. The only non-minimum-wage jobs I had ever heard of were the ones that people make TV shows about, plus "high school teacher", because I'd had some of those. The only options I knew of were:

 

1. doctor/lawyer

2. teacher

3. work at Banana Republic

4. collect welfare.

 

I wasn't good at math or science and I wasn't good with kids, so becoming a lawyer seemed like literally the only option in existence. Call me unusually sheltered if you want, but it's just my lived experience. Until I was in my mid-twenties, I hadn't put it together that other jobs existed. In my thirties, I discovered the profession I work in now---I had always known it existed, in theory, in that I knew that the tasks I now perform must be performed by somebody, but it never occurred to me that it was something you could just go to school for and then up and do. To this day, whenever I meet someone who wears a suit to work and who isn't a lawyer, my reaction is exactly what my dad's is, and what my dad's dad's before him was: I (at least mentally) cock my head slightly and say incredulously (or at least think), "How'd you get that job?" I was raised to think that you were a doctor or a lawyer or you worked at Tim Horton's or you went on welfare. To this day, I look at half the people on the Sunshine List and think, "How'd they get that job?" Who becomes city manager of a medium-sized town? Can you go to school for that? What about hospital CEOs? Do they have MBAs, or are they just doctors who were really good at office politics and worked their way up?

 

For some people, applying to law school is what you do because you're ignorant (I mean that without any pejorative connotation) and because it is the only brass ring they are aware of. And as much as the lawyers around here (rightly) shit on the "I want to be a doctor or a lawyer because then I can have a nice car" thing...some kids grow up having a reason to want a nice car and legitimately don't know how else to get it.

 

Vis. ST's "you couldn't even succeed at that" shot, I think that's mean and unwarranted. But I also think it's true that most attempts I've ever seen to criticize the legal market proceed from the premise of, "I thought we were all going to be superbillionaires, but actually, the worst 5% of students aren't living out that dream! We've been robbed!" And...no, you haven't. If you go to law school expecting anything, and it doesn't meet your expectations, that's on you for having expectations. Law school is just school. I majored in English in my undergrad; I didn't come out of it Shakespeare. I came out of it a guy who knows more about English than I used to. If you go to law school, the only reasonable expectation is that you'll come out knowing more about law than you used to. By whom were you promised a career? Jack McCoy?

 

 

Again, harsh...but it reminds me of an argument I've had a million times. At this point, I will almost certainly never practice law for a living. A part of me still wants (and will always want) to go to law school, which is why I hang around here, fanning the flame, keeping the dream alive. And friends say, "You're a moron." (I have the best friends.) "Why invest $X in a law degree unless you're going to make at least $20X back?" Well...because it's not about the money? It's because sometimes someone in my family gets illegally evicted from their home for being the wrong race or having a partner of the wrong gender, and I'd love to be able to offer them more than a hug emoji - I'd love to be able to help them sue their landlord. Being a lawyer comes with a certain amount of social cachet - not in the "I get invited to the best cocktail parties" way, but in the "I can stand up for those in need, and people will listen to me, because people listen to lawyers" way. I'd love to become a lawyer, support myself with my day job, and run a small "practice" out of my den that offers pro bono advice to four people a year. That probably sounds unbelievably asinine to the OP, but there you have it. Go to law school to be guaranteed megabucks, it's not going to happen. Go to law school to learn some things that might help you help some people, it is going to happen. So really, it's just about what you want out of it.

 

I noticed you mention the word "lived experiences" and got upset about imaginary friends who happened to be a minority, and I can only assume, transgender.  I wonder why its always social justice students who "have applied several" times and can't get in.  Or get in but delay for 3 years for a reason.  Or get in and develop an eating disorder and recover from the eating disorder and then dye their hair purple and then piss and moan when they have to work at a grocery store all summer because they couldn't get a job even with their sweet purple haircut and then one day one of the good looking and high acheiving students walks into there grocery store and they have to bag their groceries and so the social justice student couldn't handle the embarrassment and then redevelops the eating disorder.  It must be just some wild coincidence.

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No offense, but it seems like your outrage at the profession is steeped in very narrow perceptions of what good pay and success are as a lawyer.

Edited by kathryndan
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As someone about to write the LSAT this scares the crap out of me.

 

Good. It should.

 

If at any point in time you ever believed that simply attending law school was some kind of guarantee of professional and financial success, you should lose that certainty right now. For whatever it's worth, however, being scared is actually the best indication that you are less likely to be one of the people who find themselves at the end of a deeply unexamined path through education, and posting bitterly on the Internet about how all the many lies they told themselves turned out to be untrue and looking for someone to blame.

 

Anyway, good luck with the LSAT.

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No offense, but it seems like your outrage at the profession is steeped in very narrow definitions of what good pay and success as a lawyer means.

 

This is like the TL:DR version of my own post. Which, at about a 200:1 word count ratio, is pretty damn good.

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I noticed you mention the word "lived experiences" and got upset about imaginary friends who happened to be a minority, and I can only assume, transgender.  I wonder why its always social justice students who "have applied several" times and can't get in.  Or get in but delay for 3 years for a reason.  Or get in and develop an eating disorder and recover from the eating disorder and then dye their hair purple and then piss and moan when they have to work at a grocery store all summer because they couldn't get a job even with their sweet purple haircut and then one day one of the good looking and high acheiving students walks into there grocery store and they have to bag their groceries and so the social justice student couldn't handle the embarrassment and then redevelops the eating disorder.  It must be just some wild coincidence.

 

Okay so I have been known to write rambling fiction from time to time. I forget what it is that you do exactly (edit: oh, you don't yet), but maybe we can just call you "that Angry Not-Yet A Lawyer" for now, and you can do a CYOA. Because I would totally read that.

 

As an aside, I was that social justice student, sans eating disorder and cool hair. Although I did get in right away. And my imaginary friends were all all people with yacht club memberships because my real friends didn't have a whole lot of experiences or insight that would help me out when the son of the BayStreet partner turned his cool, aloof gaze on me and asked me where I went to school and I knew that was code for something but didn't know what because where I grew up there was only one fucking school everyone went to. What the fuck does that mean, where did YOU go to school? 

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I wonder why its always social justice students who "have applied several" times and can't get in.  Or get in but delay for 3 years for a reason...

 

I'll be much kinder than Hegdis, because I generally like your style. And I'm glad to call out stupidity, hypocrisy, and a lack of self-examination wherever I find it. There's no lack of that among would-be social justice warriors, just as there's no lack of it elsewhere. And I think you are mis-characterizing YB on that count, btw, but I'll let him take care of that on his own.

 

I'll only say this. I got into U of T. I was admitted in the first round, by a very wide margin. My various non-academic activities when I applied were so extra-ordinary (and yes, I mean several steps above just ordinarily impressive) that I've heard many students bitch and moan about how I somehow snuck in with special credit, until they learn that my LSAT and GPA are also both in the top quartile of all U of T admissions. I trying to avoid sounding smug here but the point needs to be made clearly. People who know everything I do and have done in real life think I'm secretly three very successful people.

 

I practice social justice law. On Monday I'll be in court trying to find some fucking solution to a very difficult mental health case. While other people are talking a good game I'm checking my various possessions into a locker so I can meet with my mentally disturbed client, alone, in little concrete room. He's accused of maiming someone. I'm quite sure he's factually guilty. Have I established my credentials yet? Because I could go on.

 

Now I'm really not in a position to figure out where in the spectrum of social and economic experiences you are located. I could speculate, but I'd actually be unreasonable in doing so and I don't want to be wrong here. Maybe you do "get it." Maybe not.

 

All I'm saying, right now, is that when you do decide you want to level your guns at social-justice-wannabes, you come after me.

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Well, you're right about the framing point, so I will concede that one. It is indeed more accurate to say law school was a "better" option rather than being the "only" option. But I question how much that matters in this discussion. Whether you have no options, or lots of options but law is the best of the group, does it really matter? Either way, going to law school makes sense, and the outcome will be the same - the applicant will go to law school. That was my main argument in response to the OP's (accurate) criticisms of law school. Until law school reaches a point where the investment no longer makes sense, people will go. The U.S. is at that point. I don't feel Canada is yet. 

 

I also feel I should add that despite having secured high grades throughout my liberal arts program, I still have no idea what I would have done with that degree other than go to law school. I guess hustle hard and apply to every job that interested me and seemed like a viable career launching pad? But the point is that despite having better than "no" options.... with no connections to lean on, and liberal arts majors with good grades being a dime a dozen, I still feel the odds were low of securing a job that could eventually pay six figures. Let alone in my early 30s. Again, I feel I would have topped out at 70k max if I got lucky and worked hard, and that a lifetime of 50k max would be much more plausible. Maybe I'm wrong on that conclusion. If so, I guess my entire position is invalidated. But most of my peers from high school that went on to do BAs are still working the same jobs they had in high-school, now in their mid 20s, making what I am sure cannot be more than 30k (and it doesn't seem like some shiny career path is suddenly coming...). Regardless of whether they had decent undergrad marks. So I don't feel the outlook was good. Which leads me to my next point...

 

I never said 50k is bad money. I realise many people make 50k for life and do just fine. I am saying (and said) it probably isn't enough to accomplish my life goals. Sure they can have a suburban house (I'd hate to live in a suburb, but I digress...) and a car and a vacation now and again. But simultaneously save for retirement (I'm not going to just assume I'd have a pension) and put 2-3 kids though university simultaneously? I haven't crunched the numbers, but I feel like it would be pretty darn hard living in a city. Of course, if you have to live in a suburb and/or your kids have to take out loans to finance education after high-school it isn't the end of the world. Both applied to me growing up and it was fine! I'm just saying it's not what I want. So to live according to my admittedly greedy and entitled aspirations, again, law makes sense and I'm still not convinced many plausible alternatives were out there. I'm sure many others feel the same. And until that changes, law schools will fill their seats despite the OP's reasoned complaints.

 

I mentioned this in my earlier post and I am not bringing this up to attack you.  I am just reiterating this because it is very important for 0Ls to see when they read through this thread and ask themselves "what should I do with my life?".  

 

It's true, if you graduate with a BA in history or something equal to that, you are going to have a hard time getting a job in anything.  I'm not trying to hate, that was what my BA was in.  However, simply having a BA opens up a lot of options for you that you would not have otherwise.  

 

Obviously, there are a number of graduate programs that you could get into, some of them worth looking into would be an MBA, and Masters of Industrial Relations or a Masters of Public Administration.  However, for a lot of people, more university isn't really a good idea. \

 

And that is where community colleges come in.  Most (if not all) of the community colleges offer a vast array of 1-year programs designed specifically for people with bachelor's degrees.  These are accelerated programs that'll give you practical training to get a real life job.  I know a few people who chose to go that route and they are all doing quite well for themselves now (I am currently making more than them; however, when you include my debt repayments into the equations they generally have a higher take home pay than me).  

 

There are a number of benefits associated with a one-year college program over law school such as it being cheaper and only being 1 year.  Even if you only start out at 38-45k, you will still be earning more than your peers in 2 and 3L during that time.  

 

I always knew that I was going to get into law school so I never strongly considered these programs before 1L.  To be perfectly honest, if I was on the bubble, I probably would have been too snobby to look into them unless it was absolutely necessary.  However, I would have been an idiot to think that way.   

 

If you are an 0L and are only thinking about law school people "you have nothing else to do", please consider some of the community college options.  Look into the programs and find out how much you could be making if you went through with them.  You still may decide that law school is the answer for you and that is fine.  However, do yourself a favour and at least STRONGLY look at what it out there.  I love being a lawyer so I am not trying to dissuade anyone from going to law school, but make sure you are going for the right reason. 

 

For a general comment towards the OP, I agree that groupthink on this board can be a problem and that it was filled with a lot of delusional people in 08/09.  Mainly that is because lawbuzz was a thing during that time, so all of the lawyers hung out there and this board pretty much only existed for people trying to get into law school and talk about the LSAT.  I think that there was a few members of the board who were in law school, I cannot think of a single person who was a lawyer posting during that time.  I will say that I do recall talking to some people on lawbuzz and the general consensus there was "the profession is fucked up, don't go to law school unless you want to be miserable".  

 

The board is a lot better now because there is a lot more diversity of thought.  Back in the day, when someone posted against the 'board consensus' it seemed like they used to get railroaded by the entire board.  However, now it seems like we are all able to have much more mature discussions about things which has made this a much better place to be.  Not perfect, but better than it was in 2008.  With all that said, it has been a long time since I first joined this board and it is quite possible that I am misremembering some things.  

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Good. It should.

 

If at any point in time you ever believed that simply attending law school was some kind of guarantee of professional and financial success, you should lose that certainty right now. For whatever it's worth, however, being scared is actually the best indication that you are less likely to be one of the people who find themselves at the end of a deeply unexamined path through education, and posting bitterly on the Internet about how all the many lies they told themselves turned out to be untrue and looking for someone to blame.

 

Anyway, good luck with the LSAT.

 

 

I am certainly aware that if or when I get a law degree I won't simply waltz into a highly paid position, but I do know that there is a possibility that I can. I mean every single lawyer I know (admittedly not many) got their degree and a legal job while being compensated quite well. So although posts like this scare me, I am met with conflicting reports and writing the LSAT still seems like a good idea to me. 

 

Also, thanks for the luck 

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You may not live on this third level, OP. But this board and watching "Frasier" are the only pieces of evidence I have that any other level exists. Generally, for me, listening to someone run a cost-benefit analysis on law school is like trying to have a conversation with an alien from outer space who is talking outer space language - I'm sure the alien is very smart (he built his spaceship and flew here, after all), but it's just not the world I live in. Where I come from, the takeaway from "Law schools used to charge $X, but now they charge $2X, and you used to be able to make $Y, but now you can only make $0.25Y!" is, "...so I can still make some dollars?" Worrying about the difference between $20,000 in tuition and $100,000 in tuition is a rich person's worry, because you have to be rich for those dollar figures to be distinguishable from each other. For me - and for literally everyone I know in real life - both of those dollar figures are abstractions, representing "a fuckton of money". And the difference between making ("only") $55,000 a year as a lawyer and having to pay back all that debt versus making ("only") $45,000 working in IT and not having to pay that debt back...it's a meaningless distinction because the dollar amounts are meaningless. Would you rather make ten billion dollars to do something you hate, or nine billion dollars to do something you love? If the latter, do you understand that you're sacrificing a billion dollars? What kind of crazy gomer wants to sacrifice a billion dollars? Well...maybe the crazy gomer for whom making nine billion dollars sounds like a good deal and for whom the extra billion dollars doesn't provide much marginal utility, is who.

 

 

 

Disagree with this part. Sure its important to talk about class and keep the reality of life for the average Canadian in perspective. But in what world is a difference between 20,000 and 100,000 a rich person's worry. People in Canad fall somewhere in a range of incomes and wealth. For some people who are from very rich families 100K is nothing and for some even 20K is too much. But for most Canadian or at least a significant amount of them, 20K and 100K a yr in tuition can mean the difference between a "Yes" to law school and a "hell no". I mean come on, this is hardly something that can be dismissed as a "class" issue. 

 

For the issues raise by OP, going to law school depends on your personal situation. The recommendation I would give to a 21 year old will be somewhat different than what I would give to a 28 year old who is married, has an actual career, and maybe a kid on the way. I agree completely with what people have posted about younger Canadians not having a good perspective of what the average Canadian makes. But people going to law school are spending 3 extra years in school with a fair amont of debt and in some cases giving up a career or 3 years worth of opportunities to build a career. Their perspective of what they want out of this is simply going to be higher than most people. Thats just the reality. So to answer OP's question, people also like the idea of "professional" degrees because they give the impression of stability and certainty. They think, engineer, accountant, lawyer, doctor all go into a "profession" and stay there with good job prospects. This is also where the stereotype of Asian, Indian, or Jewish parents forcing their kids into these professions. Combine that with a relatively high income, prestige and status (or at least the perception of it) and you will think, hey..why not go into those right?. While this thinking has some merits (and I dont think there is anything wrong with doing law for a stable career that pays well) I just wish people were aware of whats out there.

 

The world is not made up up accountants, doctors and lawyer. There are so many opportunities out there, you just have to work for them and then build your career. A lot of my friends who were proactive during their undergrad and actually attempted to look for/and try out jobs are now in great careers making decent incomes, all in their mid 20s. Half of them have positions that I couldn't even explain. But thats exactly what a post industrial advanced economy with high degrees of specializations requires. People have a tendency to be risk averse and so they end up picking the "safe" jobs even though they could be much much happier elsewhere.

 

I dont want to make it seem like im giving some stupid "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" lectures but there is a lot of out there. Universities could probably do a better job of making people aware of career possibilities. At my undergrad (and Ive heard the same elsewhere), big faculties/departments like Arts and Science tend to be awful at career advice. Maybe its not their job but it would certainly help their students. (which is why I like this forum, its good at giving reality checks). 

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Well, aren't you a treat!

 

1. You don't know shit about me. Go fuck yourself.

2. This is how you respond to a post that fundamentally agrees with you? Go fuck yourself.

3. I've been rejected several times from every law school in Canada that was operating circa 2009; I own that, and it doesn't bother me at all. Later, I got into several schools, and have since chosen not to go, because I have a pretty good career going in another field. Part of me still wants to go one day, but it would just be so that my voice could drown out the voices of troglodytes like you. Go fuck yourself.

4. Your post is a disgusting strawman attack on people with disabilities, such as eating disorders. We have members here with eating disorders who are much better lawyers than you'll ever be. If you said this kind of shit about a racial group rather than about a certain class of disability, you'd be banned from the board, as you should. If you started making similar proclamations about a racial group in court, you'd face professional disciplinary action, as you should. Go fuck yourself.

5. My transgender and minority friends are not imaginary, and I absolutely want to advocate for them. That may not be the kind of work you want to do, but if you're so isolated (or so offended at the very concept of it) that that doesn't seem like a real thing to you, you shouldn't be practicing law. It's almost comical that anyone (allegedly) practicing law would find the concept of someone caring about justice so offensive.

6. Anyone who implicitly describes themselves as "high acheiving" (sic)...well, that speaks for itself, doesn't it?

 

You're responding to someone who admittedly loves to bankrupt people. So not worth it, YB.

Edited by artsydork

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I'll be much kinder than Hegdis, because I generally like your style. And I'm glad to call out stupidity, hypocrisy, and a lack of self-examination wherever I find it. There's no lack of that among would-be social justice warriors, just as there's no lack of it elsewhere. And I think you are mis-characterizing YB on that count, btw, but I'll let him take care of that on his own.

 

I'll only say this. I got into U of T. I was admitted in the first round, by a very wide margin. My various non-academic activities when I applied were so extra-ordinary (and yes, I mean several steps above just ordinarily impressive) that I've heard many students bitch and moan about how I somehow snuck in with special credit, until they learn that my LSAT and GPA are also both in the top quartile of all U of T admissions. I trying to avoid sounding smug here but the point needs to be made clearly. People who know everything I do and have done in real life think I'm secretly three very successful people.

 

I practice social justice law. On Monday I'll be in court trying to find some fucking solution to a very difficult mental health case. While other people are talking a good game I'm checking my various possessions into a locker so I can meet with my mentally disturbed client, alone, in little concrete room. He's accused of maiming someone. I'm quite sure he's factually guilty. Have%

 

 

I tried to reply to this but this website is awful and just posted your quote.  I am not writing it again. You're not a typical SJW and if you were you would be a liability to all of your clients.

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Well, aren't you a treat!

 

1. You don't know shit about me. Go fuck yourself.

2. This is how you respond to a post that fundamentally agrees with you? Go fuck yourself.

3. I've been rejected several times from every law school in Canada that was operating circa 2009; I own that, and it doesn't bother me at all. Later, I got into several schools, and have since chosen not to go, because I have a pretty good career going in another field. Part of me still wants to go one day, but it would just be so that my voice could drown out the voices of troglodytes like you. Go fuck yourself.

4. Your post is a disgusting strawman attack on people with disabilities, such as eating disorders. We have members here with eating disorders who are much better lawyers than you'll ever be. If you said this kind of shit about a racial group rather than about a certain class of disability, you'd be banned from the board, as you should. If you started making similar proclamations about a racial group in court, you'd face professional disciplinary action, as you should. Go fuck yourself.

5. My transgender and minority friends are not imaginary, and I absolutely want to advocate for them. That may not be the kind of work you want to do, but if you're so isolated (or so offended at the very concept of it) that that doesn't seem like a real thing to you, you shouldn't be practicing law. It's almost comical that anyone (allegedly) practicing law would find the concept of someone caring about justice so offensive.

6. Anyone who implicitly describes themselves as "high acheiving" (sic)...well, that speaks for itself, doesn't it?

 

 

You're responding to someone who admittedly loves to bankrupt people. So not worth it, YB.

 

Well YB, I think you would find the average privately practicing lawyer quite hilarious.

 

The naivety on this board is extreme.

 

However, I don't enjoy intentionally offending peope to their faces, so I will keep the comments within the bounds of s. 15 from now on.

Edited by ShirleysTemple

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Some of you are clearly very miserable people who get their jollies from being bullies on the internet, so your advice is irrelevant. The market might be bad for lawyers, but it's bad for almost all fucking professions. Compare it to a larger market. The key is to be flexible and to be able to adapt the skills that you learn in law school to the new and EXTREMELY unpredictable market. If you have a very rigid and fixed plan for where your career will lead you, chances are that you will be greatly disappointed. Instead of comparing the profession to the past, compare it to the present market. Every person has to work their ass off to get where they are and everyone has to do some dirty work for a while and it's clear that some of you think that you are "above" that. You don't just land in a high powered, fun, high paying position. YOU work and sometimes it takes a lot longer than you expected, but that's the reality of this current market. 5 years ago every single person and their mother told my boyfriend that only losers go into the trade and that he needed a university education to have any shot at a decent future. He works hard, but today at 22 years old he was able to afford buying his own house without the help of his parents in Richmond Hill. He has had shifts where he spent three days straight at work, working day and night in some filthy conditions. Now all of his friends who are swimming in debt coming from Queen's and UofT with no job are no longer laughing at him for becoming an electrician. My best friend is an electrical engineer at the Honda Plant and he makes good money, but he has no weekends and works 10 hour days. Point of the story, you are entitled to NOTHING. You have to work your ass off for it and you have to invest money in it. If you walk around feeling entitled and thinking that every job is below you just because you have an education you're dead wrong. That's not how the world works anymore. There are no guarantees and job stability is rare. There is no point comparing yourself to people who have spent years grinding in the dirt to get where you are ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU'RE STARTING OUT. The grass just looks greener when it's been watered and worked.  If you go into any job solely for the purpose of getting money, you will be miserable. Every job will work you really hard for it, there's no easy way out that so you better hope that you picked something you really like. 

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 5 years ago every single person and their mother told my boyfriend that only losers go into the trade and that he needed a university education to have any shot at a decent future. He works hard, but today at 22 years old he was able to afford buying his own house without the help of his parents in Richmond Hill. He has had shifts where he spent three days straight at work, working day and night in some filthy conditions. Now all of his friends who are swimming in debt coming from Queen's and UofT with no job are no longer laughing at him for becoming an electrician.

 

This is the hardest part of this whole discussion for me to understand. A lot of this conversation started with people talking about salary versus debt, and how law degree aren't worth it (because your not getting enough money). If your number one concern is money, than the trades are generally a way easier way to make money than ANY degree. They generally don't cost anything to get, it tends to be way less complicated and time consuming to get a job afterwards, and salaries are much higher than a lot of degree holding professions in the end anyways.

 

If your in the right place at the right time you can show up at a jobsite, get hired learn a trade, and have your red seal in a few years. All while making money the whole time. Compare this to spending 4-8 years of time and money on degree(s), then going through an ungodly amount of job interviews, and when you finally do get an entry level job immediately using it to build up your linked in profile, so you can start interviewing again.

 

Please note that I'm talking about actual trades here (Red Seal). It seems the days of making a good salary at a union plant, as a labourer are mostly over. I think there is still a lot of opportunity for people who are willing to learn complex trades though.

 

If your number one concern for evaluating careers is salary, it seems to me that trades people should be looked up to. 

 

This is a bit off topic, but when I was doing my BA it shocked me that more people who were floating through their degree doing the least amount possible (no reading, hand in everything late etc.) were going to university to take a subject they had no interest in, when there was a much less complex, more lucrative career path at hand.

 

 

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If your in the right place at the right time you can show up at a jobsite, get hired learn a trade, and have your red seal in a few years. All while making money the whole time. Compare this to spending 4-8 years of time and money on degree(s), then going through an ungodly amount of job interviews, and when you finally do get an entry level job immediately using it to build up your linked in profile, so you can start interviewing again.

 

Please note that I'm talking about actual trades here (Red Seal). It seems the days of making a good salary at a union plant, as a labourer are mostly over. I think there is still a lot of opportunity for people who are willing to learn complex trades though.

 

If your number one concern for evaluating careers is salary, it seems to me that trades people should be looked up to. 

 

 

 

 

my boyfriend's foreman makes 150k + running commercial construction job sites and essentially more time in the office/telling the boys what to do than any heavy lifting and his hours are still 9-5 without any debt so if money is the main motivator.... actually sorry, when my boyfriend had to go to trade school as part of his electrical apprenticeship (the only time he got off working full time) for three months every year THEY PAID HIM TO GO TO SCHOOL AND FOR HIS TRANSPORTATION to and back from school. 

 

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