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reckless332

Help me [3.1, 3.54,]

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So let's say you've got a hundred test-takers of the same level of intelligence who work equally hard to prepare for the LSAT. Not only are half of them going to get "failing" grades---one of them is going to be in the 1st percentile of that 100. That's 100 people, all smart, all worked hard, and one of them got a 120...not because they're dumb, but because that's how curves work.

 

Is my example thrown off by some people who don't prepare? Sure. And it's thrown off in the other direction by geniuses who can write a 99th-percentile LSAT with no prep.

 

Man, running into what is arguably the toughest graduate school entrance exam in the world with minimal practice, and getting a 120 as a result.. that's not even about laziness anymore haha.. definitely dumb. :rolling:

 

 

True, and fair enough. I admit that I WAS basing my reply on the assumption that OP wishes to go to a Canadian law school...and given that the LSAT is a transystemic instrument that curves on the basis of all applicants, not just Canadian ones,I may have been remiss in doing so. Having said that, the US GPA standard is quite a bit harsher than our own, (albeit with more grade inflation) so it's difficult to quantify the effect.

 

Yeah, I think the silver lining for OP is even if you only score around the average (low 150s), there will always be some law schools for selection. A high school friend of mine went that route: He tried studying for the LSAT but didn't work out; ended up in a UK law school that's not very selective at all, but still managed to get a job. So far his pay is not great (less than what I get paid at Tes1a for an entry-mid level position now), and most of the work is very mundane compared to other associates from better schools.. but it's something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ better than US' tier-2 and tier 3s.

 

 

It's just the LSAT. It is not plural. I want to punch my tv whenever Suits comes on for this reason.

 

(Maybe that was only a typo. But just in case.)

 

I apologize. I come from the US side where TLS and reddit etc use the s at the end more often than not.

 

I'll punch myself in the face for you. :x lol

Edited by derek328

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Again, though, it's a curved test. Almost everyone - not everyone, but almost everyone - who writes the LSAT has performed well in university, or else they wouldn't be wasting their time writing the LSAT. (Some LSAT-takers are deluded---and I include myself in that pile---but most actually have reason to feel that law school is a realistic path for them.)

 

So let's say you've got a hundred test-takers of the same level of intelligence who work equally hard to prepare for the LSAT. Not only are half of them going to get "failing" grades---one of them is going to be in the 1st percentile of that 100. That's 100 people, all smart, all worked hard, and one of them got a 120...not because they're dumb, but because that's how curves work.

 

Is my example thrown off by some people who don't prepare? Sure. And it's thrown off in the other direction by geniuses who can write a 99th-percentile LSAT with no prep.

 

Saying, "If you work hard, you can learn a second language or algebra or algebra in a second language"---that's plausible. But saying, "If you work hard, you can do better than 92% of others in a very competitive environment"...I think it's a steeper hill to climb than you think it is.

 

OP, ignore this squabbling, though---focus on your GPA, and then on getting the highest LSAT score you can.

The bottom 1  percent of the LSAT gets less than a quarter of questions right. I don't think these are people who are putting in loads of preparation and falling victim to the twists of a grading curve. As well, I suppose there are a few people out there who do get somewhere is the 99th percentile without any work, but I really doubt that it's enough to exercise much sway on the curve. 

 

The problem though AoZ is that for some test takers, the principles of the LSAT will continue to elude them even with months and months of studying.  I have met individuals that have written the test multiple times taking prep courses, tutors, etc and yet can't break into the 160's.  The problem isn't their effort, its just that for some individuals the desired test scores for some of the law schools is beyond their capabilities unfortunate as it is.

 

There are always outliers like this who will never be able to get the hang of a skill, no matter how hard they try. I think there is for every activity. For me personally that activity is backing up a car (but I digress). I'll admit, I have no idea how large the group of hopeless LSAT writers is. I assume it's pretty small, but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

I do believe most people could get the hang of the LSAT and push themselves into the 160s range with enough practice and refinement of skill. As stated before I won't say it's a guarantee, but  there are some pretty astonishing stories of LSAT improvement on this forum after all. Of course, how much work the OP will need to put in to get to the mid 160s, and whether it is possible for him or her to get there at all is beyond my powers of prediction. 

 

Sorry OP for derailing your thread. I basically stand by my original advice, though. Don't rely on your natural intelligence to get you to the top of the LSAT totem pole. Focus on the one factor within your control, which is how much you practice and study for the test. You might be a total lost cause, or you might be able to ace the test without practicing (because apparently those people exist). You'll probably come somewhere in between, and benefit from some practice and studying.

 

Man that was a lot of text, being as the consensus is that you should focus on GPA for now anyways.

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There are always outliers like this who will never be able to get the hang of a skill, no matter how hard they try. I think there is for every activity. For me personally that activity is backing up a car (but I digress). I'll admit, I have no idea how large the group of hopeless LSAT writers is. I assume it's pretty small, but perhaps I'm wrong.

 

I do believe most people could get the hang of the LSAT and push themselves into the 160s range with enough practice and refinement of skill. As stated before I won't say it's a guarantee, but  there are some pretty astonishing stories of LSAT improvement on this forum after all. Of course, how much work the OP will need to put in to get to the mid 160s, and whether it is possible for him or her to get there at all is beyond my powers of prediction. 

 

 

I think what you are not realizing is that for some individuals even with that all that practice and refinement of skill, the maximum they could possibly score is somewhere below a 160.  This is simply a matter of their own cognitive limitations.  Some individuals for example are not fast readers by nature and therefore will get demolished by the reading comprehension of the exam.  I would say the instances of people accomplishing astonishing LSAT improvement are the outliers, NOT the other way around.  The LSAC has actually posted data on repeat test-takers and the data shows that only a small proportion of repeat writers will actually break into the next scoring range:

 

http://www.lsac.org/docs/default-source/data-(lsac-resources)-docs/repeaterdata.pdf

 

Also like many posters have already commented, your LSAT score is based on the LSAT scores from the previous three years.  On average about 100,000 people write the LSAT in a given year.  Accounting for three years of scores, if you scored a 160, it means you are among 60,000 scores that scored better than 240,000 other scores.  This is why most people can't break into the 160's...it's because there are other people that are simply gifted regarding the exam or you have others that simply prepared themselves more than you did.

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I think what you are not realizing is that for some individuals even with that all that practice and refinement of skill, the maximum they could possibly score is somewhere below a 160

 

Re-read the first sentence you quoted, in your last post.

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Re-read the first sentence you quoted, in your last post.

I did and now i must rephrase what i said from some individuals to MANY individuals. People trying very hard to score high on the LSAT but ultimately failing to do so aren't outliers...its the vast majority unfortunately

 

You may not like the fact but this is how curved exams work. Wait until you get to law school where you will be marked on a curve against your other classmates :)

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I'm going to make a new post after finals, with updated grades and a diagnostic score. I got a 97 on my midterm today, so I'm starting out strong! Wish me luck boys. 

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Man, running into what is arguably the toughest graduate school entrance exam in the world with minimal practice, and getting a 120 as a result.. that's not even about laziness anymore haha.. definitely dumb. :rolling:

 

 

 

Yeah, I think the silver lining for OP is even if you only score around the average (low 150s), there will always be some law schools for selection. A high school friend of mine went that route: He tried studying for the LSAT but didn't work out; ended up in a UK law school that's not very selective at all, but still managed to get a job. So far his pay is not great (less than what I get paid at Tes1a for an entry-mid level position now), and most of the work is very mundane compared to other associates from better schools.. but it's something ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ better than US' tier-2 and tier 3s.

 

 

 

I apologize. I come from the US side where TLS and reddit etc use the s at the end more often than not.

 

I'll punch myself in the face for you. :x lol

Tes1a? Are you talking about Tesla?

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Again, though, it's a curved test. Almost everyone - not everyone, but almost everyone - who writes the LSAT has performed well in university, or else they wouldn't be wasting their time writing the LSAT. (Some LSAT-takers are deluded---and I include myself in that pile---but most actually have reason to feel that law school is a realistic path for them.)

 

So let's say you've got a hundred test-takers of the same level of intelligence who work equally hard to prepare for the LSAT. Not only are half of them going to get "failing" grades---one of them is going to be in the 1st percentile of that 100. That's 100 people, all smart, all worked hard, and one of them got a 120...not because they're dumb, but because that's how curves work.

 

Is my example thrown off by some people who don't prepare? Sure. And it's thrown off in the other direction by geniuses who can write a 99th-percentile LSAT with no prep.

 

Saying, "If you work hard, you can learn a second language or algebra or algebra in a second language"---that's plausible. But saying, "If you work hard, you can do better than 92% of others in a very competitive environment"...I think it's a steeper hill to climb than you think it is.

 

OP, ignore this squabbling, though---focus on your GPA, and then on getting the highest LSAT score you can.

The LSAT is not a curved test, it's equated.  Theoretically, every person that writes it could get a 180.  They don't get the scores and then create a curve based on how everyone did.  If 100 people write the test and get every single question right, everyone gets a 180 for that sitting.

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