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OrangeSyringe

Osgoode vs. Toronto

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Are you suggesting that there aren't a large portion of students at Osgoode who also applied to UofT?  

 

Well I guess without any more information to go on, I couldn't say for certain. On the balance, you might be right and it's probable that at least half -- which I would consider a "large portion" -- would likely have applied to U of T.

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I do think this discussion has been done to death and it's come down to people's opinions because we don't have real stats available to us with enough granularity. I stand by my opinion that while U of T is objectively stronger in the composition of its class, I don't believe the difference to be meaningful enough to warrant the cost of tuition. I also think more than just an institution's selective admissions policy or class strength factors in to people's decision making when selecting a school. Whether any of this is true is up for interpretation. And naturally I am biased being at Osgoode, but I never applied to U of T or had to decide between the two institutions so I don't know what I would have done had I been given the choice. 

 

 

Precisely the reason why I'll not be attending U of T next year.

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I tell most people that the stereotypes about U of T students are inaccurate, but this this thread isn't doing a particularly good job of making that case. 

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I tell most people that the stereotypes about U of T students are inaccurate, but this this thread isn't doing a particularly good job of making that case. 

Actually, from what I understand. CasualInversion doesn't go to UofT and does not seem to have an interest in going there. On the other hand, Maximumbob is a UofT alum who is pretty quick to take the piss about the whole "UofT is number one thing". 

 

I am personally biased towards UofT (as I currently go there) but I don't think I am any more biased than Ryn is towards Osgoode...

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1) I think we can both agree that students from either school would apply to OCI positions provided it interests them.  I think you are ignoring the "elephant in the room" in that the majority of OCI jobs listed on the UV site (which seems to be the basis for your earlier argument about school reputation being a factor in employer hiring practices) are from "Bay Street" firms which could obviously influence whether a student from a particular school would participate in the first place.  A number of users of this forum have already posted about the significance of UT's corporate focus and so I think this is something to consider when looking at data such as the ones from UV.   

 

2) Could you possibly show the evidence that the UV spreadsheet represents all OCI positions?  I am having a hard time believing this point you made and I would like to see this for myself.

 

3) I think you are overlooking the other factors to influence a person wanting to go to a specific law school.  For example, maybe a student wishes to live and practice in a specific area for the rest of their lives and that would be enough to trump the increased debt of three years.  The common advice I have seen on these forums when students seek help on choosing schools is determining where they wish to practice since in the majority of cases where you go to school will determine where you end up practicing.  Perhaps going to a cheaper school and practicing in the region where a student would not enjoy their life for the next 20-30 years is enough to consider the more expensive option.  Perhaps family in the region or the circumstances with one's spouse is enough to choose the more expensive option.  I will agree debt is something students need to consider, but it should not be the most significant factor.

 

To respond to your additional points:

 

4) I think you are conflating area of practice with employment prospects.  Choosing a school will probably determine your area of practice but it does not influence your prospects with employers within that region.  A student's grades, extracurricular activities, experience and personality ultimately determine whether they get hired.

 

5) Your argument about acquiring course material from professors for free is dependent on the assumption that these professors will gladly give this material to you.  Some may not be so willing to do this.  I would also argue that learning by yourself is fine and good but sometimes learning within a classroom setting provides opportunities to learn from likeminded peers things you may have overlooked when studying by yourself.

 

6) Thanks for that snide insult insinuating that I cannot learn things by myself.  Having a bad day?

 

Busy days, lately, so I'll keep this brief.

 

1. We're talking past each other still, and we've become a boring old couple.

 

2. http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/UV_Nov2015_onlinespecial-1.pdf - Not sure why they didn't say it more explicitly this year, but read the first paragraph. The employer data is used to create the spreadsheet, the student self-reported data is used for things like "how much do your parents earn".

 

3/4. I had (mis)understood your claim that school choice does not impact employment prospects to include "in any geographic region". If you're saying any Ontario school is just as likely to get you any Toronto job as any other school, that's a slightly different claim. If you're saying any school in city x is just as likely to get you a job in city x...well then I guess we're really just debating Osgoode/Toronto, not all the law schools in Canada.

 

5/6. No, apologies. My point was the exact opposite - I am certain you are capable of learning on your own. That was not sarcastic, it was a genuine opinion. I am baffled by the number of students in their mid-20s who did great in undergrad who think they need a lecturer - who, let's be frank, we all often zone out during anyway - to learn a subject. I'm convinced it's something driven by fear rather than any actual reason to believe you can't pick up books and learn stuff on your own.

 

And I've never had a law prof I emailed to learn something not help me out. Maybe someone would, but it just hasn't happened to me, and I certainly would ask a few dozen by email before I paid thousands of dollars to attend a different school that had the course I wanted.

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It's true. Rory really wanted Harvard her entire life but ended up at Yale after making a Pro-Con list.

 

Look at the class offerings. Anything at Osgoode thrill you? U of T is going to be much more theoretical/philisophical. Is that something of interest to you? All things to consider!

Spoilers!  

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Busy days, lately, so I'll keep this brief.

 

1. We're talking past each other still, and we've become a boring old couple.

 

2. http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/UV_Nov2015_onlinespecial-1.pdf - Not sure why they didn't say it more explicitly this year, but read the first paragraph. The employer data is used to create the spreadsheet, the student self-reported data is used for things like "how much do your parents earn".

 

3/4. I had (mis)understood your claim that school choice does not impact employment prospects to include "in any geographic region". If you're saying any Ontario school is just as likely to get you any Toronto job as any other school, that's a slightly different claim. If you're saying any school in city x is just as likely to get you a job in city x...well then I guess we're really just debating Osgoode/Toronto, not all the law schools in Canada.

 

5/6. No, apologies. My point was the exact opposite - I am certain you are capable of learning on your own. That was not sarcastic, it was a genuine opinion. I am baffled by the number of students in their mid-20s who did great in undergrad who think they need a lecturer - who, let's be frank, we all often zone out during anyway - to learn a subject. I'm convinced it's something driven by fear rather than any actual reason to believe you can't pick up books and learn stuff on your own.

 

And I've never had a law prof I emailed to learn something not help me out. Maybe someone would, but it just hasn't happened to me, and I certainly would ask a few dozen by email before I paid thousands of dollars to attend a different school that had the course I wanted.

 

1) Agreed :)

 

2) The paragraph doesn't explicitly state that the employment data is a result of the employers input alone, but I will take your word on it.  The 2016 spreadsheet seems to indicate that student responses are also a part of the numbers though:

http://ultravires.ca/2015/11/2016-summer-student-hiring/ 

 

3/4) There are the few odd cases where we see lawyers go to a school in one province and then end up practicing in another province.  However, with the vast majority staying within the region where they went to school, it indicates the need for future students to carefully weigh geographic location into their decision in addition to crushing debt.  In my case, Toronto is my target market but I never applied to UT because even I had a maximum limit I was willing to pay for law school.

 

5/6) I would have to say the overwhelming majority of people who got into law school can learn on their own.  I do agree though that people are hesitant to go down this route, because they want to make sure they are learning the material correctly without missing anything critical.

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1) Agreed :)

 

2) The paragraph doesn't explicitly state that the employment data is a result of the employers input alone, but I will take your word on it.  The 2016 spreadsheet seems to indicate that student responses are also a part of the numbers though:

http://ultravires.ca/2015/11/2016-summer-student-hiring/

 

3/4) There are the few odd cases where we see lawyers go to a school in one province and then end up practicing in another province.  However, with the vast majority staying within the region where they went to school, it indicates the need for future students to carefully weigh geographic location into their decision in addition to crushing debt.  In my case, Toronto is my target market but I never applied to UT because even I had a maximum limit I was willing to pay for law school.

 

5/6) I would have to say the overwhelming majority of people who got into law school can learn on their own.  I do agree though that people are hesitant to go down this route, because they want to make sure they are learning the material correctly without missing anything critical.

 

When they say "student responses" in that section they mean that they contact 3Ls and articling students who receive a firm email that says who received a position with the firm, hence, "students from the employers".

 

We have even less data on the number of students who want jobs out-of-province and receive them - if you can't buy the UT-places-better-in-OCIs argument, which is better supported by the evidence, there's no reason to buy the out-of-province-problem argument. (Basically, if your position is that the same ratio of students from each law school who want a Toronto OCI job get one, then the geographic starting point is irrelevant; if the position is that Osgoode students who want OCI positions obtain OCI positions at the same rate as UT students, but all other schools don't, and the UV numbers are not evidence of anything...I can't think of any evidence we have to support the claim.)

 

I don't know what it would mean for something to have been critical for me to learn in law school. You will always have other lawyers around you - even if you don't work in a firm - who can help you. On top of that, the great bulk of what is learned in law school is inapplicable or only loosely applicable to any practice. There are classes like evidence and procedure that my litigator friends tell me were necessary and helpful - but then the Canadians who work in NY seem to have been able to pick it up for the bar on their own. There are classes like trusts and business organizations where I'm glad I learned the material, but in no sense was any of it too difficult to learn from a book. It's just not the case that any class you take is worth a multi-thousand dollar rise in tuition.

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Ultra-vires gets student numbers by emailing firm student co-ordinators directly.

Edited by quigglyboom

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When they say "student responses" in that section they mean that they contact 3Ls and articling students who receive a firm email that says who received a position with the firm, hence, "students from the employers".

 

So what you are saying is that students do contribute to the calculation of the hiring numbers...speaking of which I am guessing UV only contacted students from UT?

 

By the way I believe the original point was talking about whether the UV numbers account for ALL OCI positions, not whether the students or employers solely make up the UV numbers.

 

 

We have even less data on the number of students who want jobs out-of-province and receive them - if you can't buy the UT-places-better-in-OCIs argument, which is better supported by the evidence, there's no reason to buy the out-of-province-problem argument. (Basically, if your position is that the same ratio of students from each law school who want a Toronto OCI job get one, then the geographic starting point is irrelevant; if the position is that Osgoode students who want OCI positions obtain OCI positions at the same rate as UT students, but all other schools don't, and the UV numbers are not evidence of anything...I can't think of any evidence we have to support the claim.)

 

 

The thing is that I don't buy into the argument you are proposing because the evidence you are using to back up that claim (Ultra Vires) has some questions that need to be addressed before you can make a conclusion like that.  Already you have users on this forum describing the heavy corporate focus of UT and others detailing how Osgoode seems to not push for that.  I have already repeated this consideration numerous times: the majority of those OCI positions listed on UV are downtown corporate law gigs.  I think you mentioned on a previous post about getting tired of going back and forth on this point, but here you are bringing this up again.

 

 

I don't know what it would mean for something to have been critical for me to learn in law school. You will always have other lawyers around you - even if you don't work in a firm - who can help you. On top of that, the great bulk of what is learned in law school is inapplicable or only loosely applicable to any practice. There are classes like evidence and procedure that my litigator friends tell me were necessary and helpful - but then the Canadians who work in NY seem to have been able to pick it up for the bar on their own. There are classes like trusts and business organizations where I'm glad I learned the material, but in no sense was any of it too difficult to learn from a book. It's just not the case that any class you take is worth a multi-thousand dollar rise in tuition.

 

Please justify UT's massive tuition discrepancy....

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Precisely the reason why I'll not be attending U of T next year.

 

Where are you going? Did you decide?

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So what you are saying is that students do contribute to the calculation of the hiring numbers...speaking of which I am guessing UV only contacted students from UT?

 

By the way I believe the original point was talking about whether the UV numbers account for ALL OCI positions, not whether the students or employers solely make up the UV numbers.

 

 

The thing is that I don't buy into the argument you are proposing because the evidence you are using to back up that claim (Ultra Vires) has some questions that need to be addressed before you can make a conclusion like that.  Already you have users on this forum describing the heavy corporate focus of UT and others detailing how Osgoode seems to not push for that.  I have already repeated this consideration numerous times: the majority of those OCI positions listed on UV are downtown corporate law gigs.  I think you mentioned on a previous post about getting tired of going back and forth on this point, but here you are bringing this up again.

 

 

 

Please justify UT's massive tuition discrepancy....

You could also make the argument that Osgoode has less of a corporate focus because the majority of students at Osgoode might not have the opportunity to get Bay st jobs even if they tried. This would likely make Osgoode seem less corporate focused because less than half of the students will likely get an offer. On the other hand, usually over half of UofT students end up in Biglaw (not necessarily because they went to UofT, but because UofT tends to attract more competitive applicants) so the school is going to have more of a Bay st focus because those jobs are a real possibility for most of the students.    

Edited by TheLawStudent

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You could also make the argument that Osgoode has less of a corporate focus because the majority of students at Osgoode might not have the opportunity to get Bay st jobs even if they tried. This would likely make Osgoode seem less corporate focused because less than half of the students will likely get an offer. On the other hand, usually over half of UofT students end up in Biglaw (not necessarily because they went to UofT, but because UofT tends to attract more competitive applicants) so the school is going to have more of a Bay st focus because those jobs are a real possibility for most of the students.

Yeah but the issue there is that there are a large number of corporate jobs outside of the biglaw Bay street jobs, aren't there?

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Yeah but the issue there is that there are a large number of corporate jobs outside of the biglaw Bay street jobs, aren't there?

 

This is pretty much what I was getting at regarding the rather small snapshot that the UV numbers display.  There are still a number of firms that are not included on the list.

 

We haven't even covered corporate positions that involve in-house counsel as well...

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This is pretty much what I was getting at regarding the rather small snapshot that the UV numbers display. There are still a number of firms that are not included on the list.

 

We haven't even covered corporate positions that involve in-house counsel as well...

Do many law graduates go in house straight out of law school?

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You could also make the argument that Osgoode has less of a corporate focus because the majority of students at Osgoode might not have the opportunity to get Bay st jobs even if they tried. This would likely make Osgoode seem less corporate focused because less than half of the students will likely get an offer. On the other hand, usually over half of UofT students end up in Biglaw (not necessarily because they went to UofT, but because UofT tends to attract more competitive applicants) so the school is going to have more of a Bay st focus because those jobs are a real possibility for most of the students.    

 

It's a genuine possibility as well, but that still advances the argument that it's less about the school you attend and more about the student themselves.

 

On a side note, you could also make the argument though that the enormous tuition debt racked up by UT students could further promote the strong biglaw focus as well, since these positions tend to pay more on average...

 

Do many law graduates go in house straight out of law school?

 

No idea, but it would be interesting to see the actual numbers to see if that makes a difference as well.

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Still tossing Uvic and UBC back and forth. Leaning towards UBC, though.

 

Nice! The weather is better here than Toronto anyways ;)

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So what you are saying is that students do contribute to the calculation of the hiring numbers...speaking of which I am guessing UV only contacted students from UT?

 

By the way I believe the original point was talking about whether the UV numbers account for ALL OCI positions, not whether the students or employers solely make up the UV numbers.

 

 

The thing is that I don't buy into the argument you are proposing because the evidence you are using to back up that claim (Ultra Vires) has some questions that need to be addressed before you can make a conclusion like that.  Already you have users on this forum describing the heavy corporate focus of UT and others detailing how Osgoode seems to not push for that.  I have already repeated this consideration numerous times: the majority of those OCI positions listed on UV are downtown corporate law gigs.  I think you mentioned on a previous post about getting tired of going back and forth on this point, but here you are bringing this up again.

 

 

 

Please justify UT's massive tuition discrepancy....

 

Well, no. The students relay an email from their firm. The data is coming from the firms. The way it works is your firm circles you an email saying "Hi Max, please say hi to our new hires - they are joe from UT, sam from Osgoode, and jody from Western". Then Max sends that information to UV. In some cases the firms respond directly to the UV request instead. My point being - UV collects the full data for that spreadsheet, it is completely representative of OCI hiring. The survey data is not as reliable or comprehensive - some of the 2Ls going through OCI do not fill it out, and of course, people can (and do) lie on a survey.

 

I believe that if a UT student and an Osgoode student with the exact same pre-law school profile, and with whatever grades 1L spits out at them given an exact same capacity going into the machine, the UT student would have higher odds of receiving a given OCI position. Yes, a large number are corporate/commercial jobs. Yes, some number would qualify as 'bay' - that term is poorly defined so I don't really see any need to use it. It may be the case that so many Osgoode students opt-out of OCI that the ratio of students who apply to those who obtain a position is the same, or perhaps even better, than at U of T. We have no way of knowing, because Osgoode students have so far declined to conduct research into the job market. I strongly wish they would.

 

To be clear - UT got 104 OCI positions this year (53% of the class), and Osgoode got 84 (29% of the class). Given those numbers, for Osgoode students to have the same OCI success rate, they would need to apply at 60% the rate of UT students. In other words, if all 200 UT students applied to OCIs (which is not true, but for example), the success rate would only be equal if 174 or fewer Osgoode students applied to OCIs - fewer than 2/3 of the class. (And even this makes a number of assumptions, for example, that Osgoode students who fare poorly in 1L grades self-select out of the process at the same rate as UT students. Not all of those assumptions would be accurate.)

 

The reason I think it would make sense for employers to give an edge to U of T students is because: (1) they value pre-law achievement, especially given that 1L is one year; (2) the only piece of pre-law achievement they can't gleam well from a resume is undergrad GPA; (3) reading every undergrad transcript is prohibitively time-consuming; and (4) which law school you attend is a semi-reliable indicator of undergrad performance. Even if that's right, the difference should be somewhat minimal, given that Osgoode has entry averages very near to UT's. The other reason is that I have been involved in recruitment, though for a NY firm, and perhaps we're different.

 

Re: justifying the multi-thousand dollar uptick in cost...

 

For many students, I can't. There is no research that tells us anything helpful about how your law school affects any non-OCI job rate, and the UV data paints an incomplete picture without other schools doing research that tells us how many students participate in OCI, what they hope to get out of it and what they do get out of it. I think Ontario law students should recognize that the law schools themselves have no incentive to do this, that it would be a common good for future applicants to know the dimensions of the job market, and so it would be an act of public education of good value to do a proper province-wide account of the job market. I have hope.

 

There are some people for whom I think the cost makes sense. If you are certain you would like a difficult-to-obtain OCI gig, I think the data is enough to justify taking the risk. If you want to work in NY, or have other foreign ambitions, it makes sense as well. If you're shooting to be a Toronto criminal lawyer? Much harder to justify.

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Nice! The weather is better here than Toronto anyways ;)

Ermm, I don't know about that one. There you get snow and sun. Here we get rain and rain.  

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