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QMT20

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  1. The people from Queen's who got SCC clerkships wouldn't be any less deserving if they went to Ryerson though. I'm not sure if you know a lot of SCC clerks but the school they went to is not one of the top factors that got them there. I'm not sure that there's something Queen's has that another school doesn't which got them the clerkship. Additionally, a person I know from Queen's who received an appellate clerkship in the last few years had an LSAT score in the mid-high 150s and an average undergraduate GPA. Statistically, that person is probably similar to a lot of the students who would go to Ryerson and yet they're in the top 10% of our class. Who's to say some of the top students from Ryerson's class wouldn't also be one of the top students at your school or my school if they had that opportunity? And why should they be disadvantaged for an SCC clerkship or Bay Street job just because of the school they go to?
  2. I can't say anything for certain since you haven't shared your L2. But when I applied I had a 167 LSAT and a 3.22 CGPA. On that level our stats were pretty similar. I didn't hear back from any Ontario schools (except U of T rejection) until April 24th. I was accepted to Queen's on that day and heard back from Western and Windsor shortly afterwards. I remember feeling pretty anxious as an applicant as well and I know anything people say won't make you feel better until you've got an offer in hand. With the benefit of hindsight though, my advice to myself when I was waiting in mid-April 2018 would be that it's too early to worry and a lot of offers are still left to be released in late-April and early-May.
  3. I would say your stats are actually pretty competitive for Queen's and Western. Obviously, I don't know anything about your ECs or other softs. There's typically a wave of admissions in late April and I think you have a good chance of getting in. Unfortunately, I think your stats are distributed in a way that might make it hard for you to get in. Never say never because I don't know your ECs and softs, especially since the holistic schools may value those factors more than your stats. The main problem is both your LSAT, CGPA, and L2 GPA are below the medians for Ontario schools. A 159 LSAT is slightly below the 162 median at Osgoode, Queen's, and Western. A 3.42 CGPA is lower than the 3.7 CGPA median at Osgoode and Ottawa. A 3.53 L2 is lower than the 3.7 L2/B2 CGPA at Queen's and Western. If you had a slightly lower LSAT but higher CGPA or L2 GPA (say 157 LSAT and 3.7 CGPA or 3.7-3.8 L2) you'd have a pretty good shot. Likewise, if you had a higher LSAT but slightly lower GPA you might also have a better shot. I'm not an admissions officer or anything so you can take what I say with a grain of salt. But if you have difficulty getting in, I think the distribution of your stats is likely a factor. See how this cycle goes and obviously good luck! If it doesn't work out, a higher LSAT next cycle might be enough to push you past the line.
  4. I think at U of T and Osgoode there are 2 days of OCIs and the big firms interview 60-80 applicants. At Queens (I could be wrong but I assume similar at Western) there's 1 day of OCIs and the big firms interview 40~ applicants. I've heard in the past that the big firms extend OCI invites to 20 applicants per firm from Ottawa and Windsor, but both those schools did well in Toronto recruit this year so that information could be outdated. So there are more OCI slots at some schools vs others and in theory that gives you a better chance at meeting more firms. That said, your second question about whether it's advantageous to go to a school where you are more likely to stand out than another is one where the answer would draw controversy. You could assume that it's harder to stand out at U of T on the basis of the student body having higher entry stats but entry stats don't always correlate with how well someone does in law school. That said even if it's harder to stand out at U of T, they have more OCI slots so an average student there has a better chance of getting more interviews than an average student at Queens or Western. Your main question about where you should go between Queen's and Western for corporate law, it again depends on what you mean. If you just want to land at a full-service firm then I think your chances are pretty similar at Queen's and Western. If you specifically want to practice corporate law or some related field like securities, then I've heard Western has a larger course selection in these areas and you may have more opportunities to show an interest there. Queen's has a business law clinic and a lot of great business law profs but we also haven't had a full-time securities law professor the entire time I've been here.
  5. The year I applied, there was a wave of admissions around April 24th-26th. I know a number of people who were admitted during that time.
  6. I had a 3.22 CGPA in undergrad but I've been near the top of my class in law school. I was able to secure a job in the 2L recruit and an appellate clerkship this year. I think that undergraduate grades might matter a bit for 1L recruit. They have to distinguish candidates based on something. But once everyone has law school grades they don't matter anymore. To the extent I was ever asked about my undergraduate grades, it was usually a compliment about how I was able to pull things together in law school. If you have a law school GPA higher than a B+ that does mean you're competitive but nothing is guaranteed. I know people who had multiple course prizes that struck out during the 2L recruit. I don't think it's your undergraduate GPA that's holding you back. It could be that there's something in your application materials that the firms didn't like. It could be that this was an unusual year, I've also heard about dean's listers striking out this year. It could also be that you were just unlucky and you were ranked 21st-25th by all the firms you applied to but they were only doing 20 OCIs at your school (not sure which school you go to, just an example).
  7. I've heard that Ottawa is more GPA focused so it could be that your 3.58 CGPA was a negative factor in your application. However, with your stats I think you are a competitive candidate for Queen's. A 162 LSAT is right at or slightly above the median and a 3.67 L2 (assuming this is your B2) is below the median by the slightest margin. I remember my year there was a big wave of acceptances around the end of April so I wouldn't give up hope just yet. I think Ottawa's criteria for assessing applicants is just slightly different from Queen's (and Western).
  8. I can't give a direct response to your question because I haven't weighed the benefits of a trial clerkship the year after articling against starting as a first-year associate but I do have two general things I want to share: First, I have a close friend who got a call for a Federal Court clerkship interview in mid-April last year and that person got the position the week after the interview. Unless you've received specific confirmation from the Federal Court that you won't be selected, I really would not rule out the possibility of receiving a late offer this year. Second, while I've only consulted the career office at my school about appellate clerkships, I think their general advice is to apply for clerkships in 3L as opposed to 2L unless you're applying for a clerkship (ONSC) that only hires 2Ls. The reason is because you have the chance to impress your firm during articling and increase your chances of being hired back with them after your clerkship. So if you want to work at your current firm, I don't think it's a detriment to your career at all to clerk the year after articling. In fact, it probably increases your chances of being hired as an associate. However, you're right to note the short-term salary hit. It'll definitely be painful making about half of what your first-year associate friends are paid during your clerkship.
  9. Don't know how deep exactly Queen's connections to the Vancouver market are but anecdotally the people I know who have applied for the Vancouver recruit have generally been able to land at the full service firms there. I also know of 3 people from Queen's in the past few years who secured BCCA clerkships. Not trying to say that makes Queen's better than Dal (I think both are good choices). Just that you shouldn't be worried about getting access to the BC market if you go to Queen's instead of Dal.
  10. I think this depends on the firm. Mine provided all the summer students with a laptop and phone.
  11. At Queen's this information is published. I would count people in the "Law Practice Program" and "Graduates Seeking Position" categories into your question about law graduates who cannot find an articling position. There tends to be about 10 graduates per year who don't secure articling, although how many among them have actively looked outside major cities for work I can't say. The other caveat about this data is it doesn't capture how many people get hired back at the firms where they article which, aside from the firms which publish their numbers with PrecedentJD, could be anyone's guess. https://law.queensu.ca/programs/jd/student-development/employment-data
  12. Not a U of T student but I have to agree with this comment. I don't know what career outcomes are later into your career but if you just look at the recruitment numbers for different law schools you can see the discrepancy. http://ultravires.ca/2019/12/toronto-summer-2020-2l-recruit-numbers/ https://ultravires.ca/2019/09/new-york-summer-2020-recruit-results/ http://ultravires.ca/2020/10/toronto-summer-2020-1l-recruitment-results/ Both U of T and Queen's where I go have classes of about 200 students. If you look at the numbers from the Toronto 1L recruit, the New York recruit, and the Toronto 2L recruit, something like 140/200 students will have settled into a position somewhere or another at U of T. In comparison, if you look at the historic numbers at Queen's (which are actually wrong in this edition of ultra vires, the 60ish students that landed in the 2L recruit for 2019 summer were from Queen's not Western), the numbers range from 45-60 per year in that recruit from Queen's. Maybe 5-10 from Queen's will land in the 1L recruit per year, and a student from Queen's lands in New York only once every couple years. As such, only about 60/200 students will have settled into a position at Queen's. Someone might mention the fact that the Articling recruit provides different opportunities and if you look at the overall articling placement rates between Queen's and U of T, it isn't that different (both around 95%). That's true but I don't think it's fair to assume that a greater number of students from Queen's are going for the unique opportunities offered in the articling recruit compared to U of T. Unless there's a survey that proves otherwise, my experience has been that almost everyone at Queen's is applying in 2L, and the majority who apply to articling recruit are people who didn't land in 1L or 2L. People might say things like not everyone wants to go for Toronto/New York but it's my experience that in 2L the vast majority of students at Queen's are applying to the Toronto recruit. So when competing for the same positions, I definitely think the average student (and even the slightly below average student) at U of T has the edge. This isn't to bash on Queen's. I love the school, I've had a very fulfilling legal education, the professors and my peers have all been great, and if I knew everything about the school that I know now at the time I was making my decision, I think I'd still choose to go here. I also don't necessarily think it's fair that U of T students are hired more than Queen's students but it just seems to be the truth. I just don't think it's true that all law schools are putting you on an equal pedestal when most of the students inevitably apply for the same positions.
  13. If the only reason you're considering the program is the possibility that it might help you with landing a job next year, don't go. Even if getting exposure to business law courses will give you something to talk about in your interviews, it wouldn't make the difference between you and another candidate. Plus there's so many students from Queen's who do the program that I think it just doesn't stand out. If the reason you want to do the program is because you're genuinely interested in international business law, I can say that the professors are very engaging. It's a pretty intensive program and you'll definitely learn a lot.
  14. I'll leave it to someone else to answer the U of T side but for Queens: 1L schedules are 5 full year courses (Contracts, Property, Torts, Criminal, ILS) and 2 single-semester courses. The 2 single semester courses are Public Law first semester and Constitutional Law second semester. I don't know how competitive it is to get good grades at Queen's vs U of T. But Queen's grading curve means that 50% + 1 of the class must get a B or lower. Roughly 15-20% can finish in the "A range" (A or A-). Nobody has to get a C but some professors do give out Cs. Because everyone is close together, there's definitely a Queen's law bubble and you'll get to know most of your colleagues over the course of law school. I found the Queen's law community/alumni to be especially keen to help with recruitment by talking to me about their experiences and connecting me with alumni who they knew. Hope this information is helpful!
  15. It differs from year to year but some firms don't send ITCs for OCIs. All of the big firms will send ITCs for in firms though. Anyone who you don't hear from, you'll find out through your career office soon.
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