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NathanDrake

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  1. Other than losing the tuition deposit necessary to accept UofT, you'll be fine.
  2. Its more like 62-64% when you take into account NY job offers and you cite the 54% number reffered here. https://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/UV-February-2018-Recruitment-Special-1.pdf. Keep in mind that the 54% is all referring to all students in the class (205) so its assuming that every single person is applying to a Bay St job (and assuming the no one in the class went to Alberta and British Columbia). So the number is most certainty significantly higher, but I will use the most conservative estimate. I understand that a simple 10% here or there may seem like nit-picking but considering your reliance on these numbers is seems really odd that you refuse to use the right numbers even though a number of UofT students have corrected you in previous threads (including myself in this thread a few posts up).
  3. Well the general answer to your question is it depends on your circumstances. But I will say that I do not think this thread is doing a justice to the whole UofT versus T14 debate. As someone who attends UofT, I don't think i have met anyone who regretted turning down a lower T14 for UofT. The problem with the whole UofT versus T14 debate is the correct answer is it really depends on your circumstances, but no one really wants to hear that. Obviously the poster could have easily typed in "UofT versus T14" and read the other 100 posts on this topic and made a decision, but they made a new one, so the people who are actually going to provide a reasonable debate are probably so fed up with this issue that they just skipped it, this leaves the debate looking extremely one-sided. I have also noticed that a number of posters on this threads are either very new into law school or have not been admitted yet and while it is important to hear different perspectives it really turns into the blind leading the blind. When I look back as to how little I knew about law school when I started as opposed to now it really is like night and day. All I can say is that there is no way I wouldve attended a lower T14 over UofT, most people I have talked to at UofT would not have considered lower T14s over UofT, I have a few friends who did undergrad in the states and even they said there is no way they would have attended Cornell, Northwestern, G-town over UofT. So to answer your question, did you make an mistake attending UofT? I have no idea, but I really don't think this thread should make you change your mind.
  4. I just don't think this is true.
  5. Well presumably the low-income student is going to get significant financial aid as well. It is extremely unlikely that a low income student is going to have 160K in debt.
  6. Students from lower-income backgrounds are eligible for more government loans than those from middle and upper class backgrounds. It makes perfect sense that UofT prioritizes these students over those who come from higher income backgrounds.
  7. You're right, 15% might be too high, we usually have around 6-7 JD/MBAs and 13-14 JDs going to New York, it is also important to note that every year around 3-4 people turn down NY, so it would be more like 9-10% assuming a class of 200. This is a fair, but this thread seems to be focused mostly on corporate outcomes; outside of corporate law I think it becomes very convoluted because salaries fluctuate significantly. I was mostly referring to UofT students who went to NY to practice as those who come back. Interestingly, Canadians who go to the states for school tend to stay, whereas Canadians who go to UofT but get hired in NY tend to come back. I personally think it has alot to do with the connections you've made and the fact that you've lived somewhere for 3 years.
  8. It is also important to keep in mind that UofT places around 15% of its class into New York, with UofT tuition still being significantly lower than any U.S school (with currency conversation) you are making more money than your American-educated counter parts. So its more like: UofT: 15% chance you go to New York and make an insane amount of money 50% you go on Bay and live very similar to a NY associate when you take into account tuition payments + lower cost of living 30% you get an outside Bay job and you are are going to have to scrimp and save to pay off your debt 5% you don't find a job and you are freaking out GeorgeTown: 40% you end up in NY big law where you make a lot of money (but don't live as well as the UofT grad because you have American Law school debt) 45% you get a non-big law job and have to scrimp and save to pay off debt 15% you don't get a job and you are freaking out Also its important to keep in mind that in the NY versus Bay St debate, most Canadians who go there end up coming back after a few years. If NY is really, as some posters make it out to be, the city where everything is better as a lawyer, it does not make sense that the vast majority come back. A more accurate representation is that, while NY pays significantly more than Bay St initially, after a few years it depends more on the lawyer than the city. What does this mean for someone making the UofT/U.S debate? 1) Look at NY biglaw as something you will do for 3-4 years. Compare the extra money you will be making to the extra debt you will be taking on to go there (taking into account financial aid and scholarships). 2) When you look at employment rates, look at the strength of the class and look at the worst case scenario and gauge how well you think you can do (like I said, Columbia and NYU have amazing biglaw placement rates but you are also competing with a much stronger and corporate-geared class). 3) Look at other factors, some people like New York because its the corporate center of the world, some people like Toronto because its a little smaller and more manageable, try and quantify those values and think about what matters to you 4) Most importantly, take everything on here with a grain of salt (including myself); keep in mind that the person comparing UofT to Georgetown has never attended either of those schools, keep in mind that the person telling you NY lawyers tend to prefer Toronto is mostly talking to lawyers that came back to Toronto and is probably missing out on the lawyers who decided to stay.
  9. It depends on the firm and can range from 100% to 60%, but like I said NY year-to-year hire back is hardly 100%. The issue with your comparison is you are looking purely at numbers, without dwelling into them. From personal experience I can tell you UofT's biglaw placement is around 63-65% when you take into account the number of students who are going to New York (they arent included in the UV numbers) and the number of students who opt out. However, in Toronto there are a number of firms that hire (and pay bay st market rate) who do not participate in the OCI recruit. Georgetown may have 40% biglaw placement but their employment rate is around 85%...that means 15% of a 600-700 person class is graduating with 300K debt and no job. Conversely, Uoft employment is around 95% so very few people are graduating with no jobs. So essentially, UofT and Georgetown have very similar upside but vastly different downsides, which dont make them similar schools. And once again, pure employment rates are not perfect. Columbia has a 80% biglaw placement, UofT has 65%. I think it is probably as hard to stay in the top 65% of UofT as it is Columbia. Then after that you have to take into account that, while the U.S pays significantly more than Bay st starting salaries, the vast majority of people leave (U.S is like 6 partners per 100 summer students), and once you leave biglaw the gap between salaries closes significantly. Also, if you have someone staying on Bay and someone going in-house in NY, the Bay lawyer is going to make significantly more. So yes, to answer your question, if you look at purely biglaw placement without delving into the numbers or doing any other analysis then yes, UofT and Georgtown have similar numbers (so does Georgetown and any other bottom-half T14 school, such as Berkley, NW, Cornell) but when you actually look into the numbers they are pretty different.
  10. Where are you getting this information from? I have never heard of a firm not hiring a student back from summering to articling. It is important to note that every year there are a number of students that leave after the summer usually because they want to practice somewhere else, but this is always the student's decision. While hire-back from articling to associate is not 100%, from most of the New York lawyers I talk to, it is significantly higher than NY first year associate to second year associate hire-back.
  11. Cassels was off the list for a few weeks and it recently came back with the updated salary so it might just be BLG updating their information.
  12. L2 - your last 2 years, some Canadian schools only look at your last 2 years for admission. UofT only looks at your best three years. The median for this year was 3.85(best 3)/ 166. Your stats put you above the 75th LSAT but below the 25th gpa so it’s kind of uncertain but I’m going to lean toward yes, assuming your B3 is higher than your CGPA.
  13. As someone who goes to UofT and would probably go here again if I got in. I think if your goal is to work in government then debt minimization should be your chief concern, due to that factor UBC and McGill are the better choices. I would probably pick McGill out of the two because the french will probably help with government work and flying from Vancouver to the East is probably going to add on your expenses. I am really unsure how the debate turned into a which school has a better reputation on the States but I really fail to see how that is relevant to your career goals. I think the key takeaway from that debate is different people are going to have different perceptions of Canadian Universities overseas so making a decision solely on that factor is probably not a smart choice.
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