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About DenningsSkiTrip

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  1. That’s still 10-15 people, I always assumed that roughly that many got a New York job from U of T as well (although onepost is saying the number has gone up this year). Anecdotal but I’m not even sure if they distinguish between Canadian schools that much, seems to me like they’re just going after the top people who really get law. Don’t they do the same at a lot of run of the mill US schools too?
  2. To the OP’s question, in general the top 10-15% for JD students seems to hold true. I would say 4 HHs in 1L would be competitive and 3HHs would be borderline based on friends who have done it. I know several people who had straight Hs or one or two HHs and then Hs, some of who had good work experience or 1L Toronto OCI jobs who didn’t get interviews. They seem to like JD/MBAs a lot in NY, so you can get interviews with lower grades, think more like top 30% in 1L. And then there is one NY firm who the past few years has hired JD/MBAs who were in the bottom half in 1L but who have pretty awesome personalities. I also know some JD students who had bottom half grades in 1L who have gotten NY interviews but that was more due to exceptional resumes and possibly connections as well. So it does sort of depend.
  3. First of all what do you mean by “starting a career in finance”? If you mean you have a capital markets job at RBC lined up I think you’d be crazy to go to law school now, I wouldn’t. That’s a great opportunity that would look great on your resume, and would be an asset if you still decided to go to law school later on. If you mean you still have to go find a finance job then I guess it’s more of a dilemma, although I do personally think that having some work experience prior to law school is a good thing. Anyway to your questions: 1. Nope. I did really well in undergrad and thought I’d keep on cruising along. It didn’t work like that and I had a rough time in first year. I did wind up doing a lot better in second and third year but I had a tough time adjusting to the law school environment, where a lot of my friends had an easier time adjusting. I think a lot of it depends on the person. 2. Nope, legit thought I might have failed an exam last semester and wound up doing really well. Other times I’ve thought I did well and got a P. I just can’t tell how I did, plus a lot of it is dependent on the curve because your exam is basically just ranked against everyone else’s in the class, and then the top 10-15% gets an HH, the next 30% gets an H, and everyone else gets a P. So if everyone does well it’s possible to write a great exam and get a P because of how the curve works. 3. I think in general terms people with high LSAT scores are supposed to do better (emphasis on in general). That being said I know people who had 175+ LSAT scores who have struggled (more than one), and I know people who got in off the waitlist or transfers from other schools who had sub 160 LSATs who are now killing it. 4. This one is all over the place. A lot of people go in not expecting anything and get jobs, and then there are always a few people with straight Hs or above, who have good personalities, who get 20+ OCIs and then don’t get an offer for some reason. I wouldn’t over analyze OCIs, the stats are what they are, 50ish percent of the class will get a job. What I would say is if your mindset is I have to work at Blake’s or Davies or I don’t want to do law then maybe think about law school a little harder, you might just be chasing money or prestige and I don’t think that is the right reason to go. The people I see who are the happiest have a legitimate interest in the law and OCI job or no OCI job they’re happy to be doing what they’re doing. Finally, law school isn’t going anywhere, you don’t have to go right now. If you’re not sure maybe it wouldn’t be so bad to go work for a bit and think about it, even if you only go work for a year.
  4. Lol, calm down, I didn’t go to any of those schools for undergrad, I was just answering the OP’s question.
  5. 1. I know people who bombed first year of undergrad (like sub 1.7 bombed) who then got over a 3.9 the last 3 years who got in. So yes, it’s possible. 2. Most people apply during their last year of undergrad, admissions won’t see the full 4 years of marks when most people apply, and the student with a 1.5, 3.95, 3.95 and a 170 on the LSAT may still very well get in. 4. No, but most of the class at U of T comes from U of T, McGill, UBC, Western and Queens. Probably because smart high school students in Canada tend to go to those schools for undergrad, not because of preference. 5. Most (as in 70% or so based on my own assumptions of going to U of T law and talking to classmates) people are in the 3.7+ all 4 years, 164+ category, but plenty aren’t. Then again many of those who don’t fall into that category have something else going for them, and I don’t mean sat on student government. They overcame extreme hardships, worked for NGOs or in government, played collegiate/professional/Olympic sports, that kind of thing. 6. Yeah, plus a good PS that person would still be competitive. 7. No I think it’s still hard, and then getting through is hard, and getting a good job is hard, and sticking around at that job is hard, it’s all hard.
  6. Since I’m tagged in it. Personally it would go beyond the ability to get a visa, and into general financial life stuff. Tax issues, investments, where that money is and how it’s treated, owning real estate, not wanting to own real estate I might have to liquidate at a moments notice if I lost my job and had to leave the country, etc. These things may or may not matter depending on where someone is at in their life. It might not matter to you but it would to me, and having citizenship or a green card would add a lot of security to the situation.
  7. I don’t. I’ve had a good experience, I think it’s a good program populated by smart and interesting people and I think the employment outcomes from U of T are excellent, even if some wind up jaded upon learning that they aren’t guaranteed. If the comparison is U of T vs Osgoode I would still pick U of T if I had to do it over again. The price is close enough and I think the opportunities at U of T flow deeper into the class. U of T vs UBC or McGill is tougher because the classes are of comparable ability and it’s so much cheaper. I still think U of T is the better choice if you want to do corporate. My position on this is largely location based, there’s just more of it in Toronto. But I think if you want to do family or crim or something like that I think UBC or McGill would be better because the degrees are equally well regarded and the programs are just so much cheaper. With respect to U of T vs the T14, I got into several T14 schools, and my opinion about the US is that if I got into Harvard Yale or Stanford (I didn’t) I would go for sure. I just think the opportunities and the experience would be so good I couldn’t turn it down. Beyond that I wouldn’t go to a non HYS T14 unless I had US citizenship or a green card and really wanted to live there, or I was dead set on a JD/MBA because a program like Cornell or Duke or Berkeley gives you access to a very good MBA, and if you can get in to the dual at places like Northwestern or Penn etc. you get access to an elite MBA. I think some Canadian law students mis construe the benefit of a “prestigious” law degree in the US. Sure Penn and Cornell are in the Ivy League, but getting into an Ivy League law school is a far cry from getting into an Ivy League school for undergrad. One of those is doable if you just have the GPA and LSAT, the other borders on the impossible even if you have perfect high school grades and an obscene SAT/ACT. I also think it’s easy to over state the career prospects coming from a T14 or even HYS. US biglaw chews you up and spits you out (not to be overly negative but it does), and if you poke around on LinkedIn you can find an ocean of people who went to highly prestigious schools, worked for an impressive firm for 2 or 3 years, and now are happily working as in house counsel for various corporations. It winds up looking very similar to the career paths of a lot of Canadian lawyers who went to Osgoode or McGill or Dalhousie or Queen’s, they just happen to live in different countries. The New York partners making bank are few and far between, and a T14 law degree is hardly a fast track, even if it makes it easier to get hired out of the gate. And as far as this whole argument that the U of T JD program is going to fall apart because it’s expensive, that argument only holds true if other schools don’t increase their tuition just as fast (as others have mentioned). Osgoode and Western and Queens are increasing their tuition just as fast as U of T. And if they could, they would be charging just as much for their programs as U of T. The fact is they can’t unless they are offering the same thing U of T is offering. If Osgoode moves back downtown to Osgoode Hall, chops their class size to 200, and places the same 100ish students in 2L OCI positions, they can charge the same price as U of T because they’re offering the same thing at that point. As it is they’re up in North york and while their placement stats are excellent, they aren’t quite as good as U of T so they have to offer a discount. The same is true for Western and queens, they aren’t offering the same employment outcomes and cosmopolitan location (whatever that is worth), so they have to offer a discount. I know the chatter about U of T on this forum can get pretty negative for all sorts of reasons, and as you can see I don’t think it’s the best choice for everyone. But I still think it’s a good program and I think it’s still the best choice in Canada for a lot of students. You just have to take your personal career goals and personal finances into account.
  8. The problem with those stats is they never show you how many people from that school applied to that market. As an example, if 30/100 U of C students got 2L OCI jobs in Calgary but 15/18 U of A students who applied for jobs got them, would your odds still be better in the Calgary market? Of course not, it would just be the case that more U of C students wanted to work in Calgary. Also as far as the formal 1L/2L recruits go networking is grossly overrated. Those processes are standardized and designed to be objective, and while you might get an OCI because a former student at your school who knows you said you were a good person what largely matters as far as securing OCIs is grades, and to a lesser extent your resume if you have some relevant and desirable work experience, or have a science background for an IP firm or whatever. Where networking really comes into play is non OCI hiring. You aren’t getting a job at Blakes because you cracked a funny joke at the cocktail reception following the firm tour and some partner remembers you.
  9. Most do, and there is lots of time left. Keep your head up and keep applying!
  10. Keep in mind that there is no guarantee that the “triple B’s” will be doing the articling recruit next year. Very good grades were top 30% of the U of T class in 2L, or they had top 30% grades in 1L and 2L and struck out at OCIs. And this is anecdotal and me generalizing based either on people telling me what they got or alluding to how they did.
  11. It depends on the kind of job you’re looking for. The people I know who got interviews at Bennett jones, blakes, and blg last year had very good grades and work experience. At the same time I have several friends with mostly P’s who got articling positions in the recruit doing a range of different things. The articling recruit isn’t like OCIs where it’s mostly corporate and they’re looking for a B+ average, it’s very different.
  12. I hear you, I just get a little lost in this whole debt discussion. If $105k from U of T is going to absolutely break someone moving forward then $82k from Osgoode, in a practical sense, isn’t any better. In such a situation (based on the argument being made) this hypothetical student really can’t afford either. And when there are other schools in Canada that you can attend for $35k for 3 years, an amount of money that won’t destroy this hypothetical student’s future finances. It starts to make sense that this student may want to move, regardless of the fact that you should go to school where you want to work. I agree with everything you’re saying except for the suggestion that Osgoode is a more reasonable financial decision than U of T is. It’s $105,000 vs $82,000. That really isn’t enough of a difference to say that Osgoode is a good value bet. Both are extremely expensive, especially in light of other options in Canada. The value play is one of the excellent Canadian JD programs that costs roughly a third of the amount of the two Toronto schools.
  13. IMO if you’re going to make the money argument in a U of T vs Osgoode debate I don’t think the conclusion should be “pick Osgoode”, I think the conclusion should be don’t go to either school. If you have the stats to get into U of T and Osgoode you can get into every other Canadian law school as well. And if you’re interested in lesser paid employment and money is a concern both McGill and UBC are equally well regarded and are much much cheaper than either U of T or Osgoode, which are the two most expensive schools in the country. I think if you’re concerned about debt you should go to one of those schools instead.
  14. I wouldn’t try to explain poor academic performance on a cover letter, be it undergrad, law school, whatever. With respect to undergrad grades, I know mine have been looked at because people have commented on them in interviews, but I never got the impression that they were weighted in any significant way. I haven’t really been grilled on anything in an interview (and I don’t have a spotless record so if someone wanted to find something to grill me on they certainly could find it), but I always had answers prepared in case it came up. If someone asked me about some poor grade in undergrad I’d take ownership of it and then try to emphasize that I used it as a learning experience and worked hard to improve, and then point to subsequent things that went well that display that. My impression of how employers deal with spotty things on your record is that if they don’t like something they just don’t interview you. They don’t haul you in there and give you shit for it, that would be a waste of time and they get lots of applications.
  15. Top law schools (TLS) forum is a good resource for US applications, you’ll get much better information there than here. Best of luck!
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