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  1. The reason is that it's a fluid situation. Tuition costs, student enrollment and marketing costs aren't static. Though people tend to think they are. So if the trend line shows that it is exponentially worse today than 20 years ago, then one can infer that it will be exponentially worse tomorrow. Or some kind of crash/school closures will occur to abruptly end the exponential curve. Which is what is beginning to happen in the US system. So unless people take at least some active participation in stopping a runaway train it inevitably winds up being a form of bubble. And that means the inherent value of a degree we all need will likely be in jeopardy potentially for a portion if not a majority of your career. Also, posting one thread in 5 years on a Saturday morning and helping an employee aren't exactly mutually exclusive. You are in law school right? What kind of argument is that?
  2. I would agree with you. Except my MAIN point is that schools were not this way 20, 30, 40 years ago. They were modestly priced, honest, and provided better outcomes (with much lower downside risk). I can't stress this enough. UofT was, inflation adjusted, $5900 in 2016 dollars. Only 20 years ago. There isn't a law school within spitting distance of that today. They've all ramped up tuition to increase salaries way above inflation. And as far as I can tell there wasn't alot of issues with professor quality or starvation due to poverty back then. The point is that this behaviour empties the inherent trust/prestige from the institutions. So any signalling effect will be GONE from these degrees long term. Much like the term "Quack Doctor" owes its roots to a similar period of nefarious dealings from medical schools from the turn of the 20th century. It took decades to recoup the prestige element, which is critical for graduates. What it means is that in your 20s you look like a genius for having gone to a law school, but by your 40s people secretly believe you have trouble working light switches. This is what happens when you monetize the inherent trust of an institution. And sleazy marketing materials is a good way to do it.
  3. There is some truth to this. However, the information asymmetry problem has created unethical behaviour in prospective student marketing material. I'm not sure what the admissions material looks like today, but up until 2010 headlines were something like (paraphrasing) "Explore Unlimited Options", "Anything you want", and at the Open House this would be totally emphasized with examples from people across industries. And this was totally unrealistic. You can't tell students that kind of stuff on the way in while also having a career services office that tells students to google for an articling job. I think you're under-estimating the ratchet effect. That schools will compensate for more aware potential students with ever more misleading or refined sales pitches.
  4. No, I'm simply turning around the status obsession that slipped from a previous poster. The guy couldn't help but try to rank me as compared to him based on what I had said. My point was just to bring that behavior to heel. I turned it around so that he's the loser, hoping that it might stop what I believe was always a critical reason that honest dialogue over a major set of issues was never addressed when these problems could have been nipped in the bud.
  5. Osgoode Hall is $24,000 before books, rent etc. Western is about $21,000 per year. Not exactly a poor man's paradise. However, Queens is approaching reasonable levels. Don't even mention uOttawa or Windsor as alternatives.
  6. You know what, sure. My field is low level IT. If that makes you happy or me some loser. This is THE SAME GAME that was played before. It's all status marking, and ranking people based on perceived salary/success. Dissent managed via status anxiety transfer. While the profession literally implodes. What a joke. It's not 30k in tuition anymore. It's six figures in debt. It's life ruining levels now. That's why it's dangerous you shill. I'd like to point out that it's the BEST students with the highest grades and entrance scores that are opting out of going to or applying to elite schools like Harvard now. Because they probably had multiple lines in the water and their abilities gave them multiple options. Better options. So the profession, and student body, is reduced to a bunch of numbskulls comparing dick size.
  7. Hey guys, I long ago finished law school, and have subsequently long since left the legal profession, but I had to ask the ol' board simply: why are you still applying to law schools, particularly Ontario ones? Let me explain. I was graduating back in 2009, during the Great Recession. It was clear even then that structural issues had developed within the profession while the ossified faculties remained aloof to even a hint of change. In fact they were increasing class sizes and tuition costs by the maximum amount legally allowed. I'm asking today because I've got a man who now works for me. He's a law school graduate. But his field is now low level IT. He makes 50k a year. I look at him and I remember how I used to come on to this board years ago and shout "NO, it's not just the US, it's systemic, there's a real problem!!!". But the groupthink was intense. This board was an echo chamber of self-assurance and delusion back in 2010-11. I bet my employee was on this board making fun of the warnings at the time. Now matters are unbelievably worse. The low-end of the market is flooded with Bond graduates, technology is commoditizing work, wages have been stagnant for almost a decade (particularly in Toronto). I mean COME ON. Any argument that this isn't structural, and really bad, is a blatant disregard for reality. I mean, applications at HARVARD are down nearly 20%. Columbia is down 30%. There is now open speculation that a top-20 US school will close. Guys, when the top law schools in the world are seeing declines like this, it's time to hit the exits. Let's look at the vaunted University of Toronto's reaction to this hurricane: 2008: Laid off articling students, a bloodbath during the recession, are "shown concern for by the faculty" by extending the deadline for a Tax LLM application. They freaking upsold desperate grads like a 3AM Shamwow infomercial....school increases tuition. 2010: "Career Services" office is caught telling third-year students without an articling offer to Google search for a job. That's literally their prime advice. Hilarity ensues in Ultra Vires....school increases tuition. 2012-2013: Average starting salaries drop by like 15% (or something similar) province-wide. Partners are openly complaining that associates don't "bill enough". Which really translates to they no longer have the work to give associates. Concurrently, protests of tuition increases by student body ensue. Faculty hold listening groups, concerns are heard. Everyone leaves for summer.....raises tuition. 2015: Dean Ron Daniels, the stooge who started this insane and never-ending regime of tuition increases, comes back to give graduation speech. Students threaten protest AT GRADUATION for his role in the massive tuition increases. Faculty listens to concerns. Dean allowed to give speech anyway. And gets an honorary degree. Kinda shows where the faculty's priorities are (hint: NOT THE STUDENTS). All the while it was back-slapping on this board. We're the big winners of course. Anyone who raised concerns was a loser who couldn't hack it. Meanwhile tuition goes from something like $4000 to $33,000 per year over the course of two decades. And people kept applying. Good god. Law schools are stores of trust. And that trust was built up over decades of service to both students and the community. But about twenty years ago service may have no longer mattered to the faculty and staff of Ontario law schools. Instead, they viewed that store of trust like a financial asset to be drawn down in the form of exploding salaries for themselves funded by student debtors like us. When that trust is gone the value of the institutions and the degrees they confer will drift away. This isn't sour grapes from me. Quite frankly I could care less if any of you think that. But I can see the human cost in all of this right in front of me. I can't stand it. Why aren't you protesting with your feet?
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