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  1. onepost

    U of T grading

    If Luckycharm's mapping of letter grades onto the current system was accurate, a straight 'B' student would (as a matter of fact) be in or near the top 10% of the class and grades would be curved to a C+ average. Which is absurd. A P is not equivalent to a C/C+ and no one has ever treated it like that. For the record, I am equally skeptical of the Admin's equation of an H to an A- (maybe for the ego-stroking reasons discussed earlier). The whole emptiness of mapping the current system of grades onto letter grades becomes apparent when you consider other school's curves. There are some that curve to a B+ average, with basically 70% of the students getting that grade. (I'm thinking here of Queen's, if anyone wants to find the stats for that.) That is fundamentally incompatible with U of T's grading system. If you want to impute letter grade equivalents onto the HH/H/P/LP system, you need to know what the distribution of U of T's curve would be under a letter grade system. Without that information, the whole project is circular. As it stands, a P is exactly what it says it is: a mark somewhere between the 1st and 55th percentile of the class. Now whether this is good or bad is up for debate (as was done above, and which I don't think I want to reopen).
  2. onepost

    U of T grading

    I think we agree that the only good reasons for hiring someone are meritocratic reasons! That's pretty substantial common ground, given the realities of business decisions. But we depart on whether grades are the only measure of merit, and with your suggestion that there can be no good non-grade related reasons to hire people. I think there are such reasons--some of them very good. (I also worry that grades may be uncomfortably well-correlated with some of the very factors you think are pernicious, but that's a question of fact I can't prove.) But I think your points are well taken. Again, I honestly do believe that people hire for bad reasons all the time, even though I think they neither need to or should. I am not convinced people hire from U of T with more reliance on bad reasons, as a result of the grading system, but I see the argument and I'm prepared to believe it. I don't think I believe it's U of T's job to prevent people from inappropriately discriminating. Before I close the books on this, I do think students manage to distinguish themselves -- and not just those at the top of the curve. Going into the 2L recruit, you have seven grades. Building a pretty detailed ranking of class from that information isn't rocket science. The ambiguities of the P probably only pay off in tail, among students students with a bunch of Ps and one or two Hs. They also erase the 'disastrous one-off grade' phenomenon. ...I don't literally want 10 bands above a P. My point is that focus on the top of the curve is placing the emphasis on the wrong thing. Phew. Okay. Good night.
  3. onepost

    U of T grading

    That argument is premised on their being no valid non-grade related reasons to pick one person over another. Let's call such valid reasons ... 'fit.' Firms hire on 'fit' all the time and are perfectly open about it. Now maybe there are no valid non-grade reasons for hiring, and 'fit' is a cipher for (what I guess we'll call) improper discrimination. Fine. But I doubt it. If this were the case we could just do away with interviews. I agree that reducing the information available about students forces people to hire based on factors other than grades. But this can cut many ways. And if causes firms to rely on improper reasons in their hiring, that's not a problem with the grading scheme. To your second point, about distinguishing yourself: People continue to distinguish themselves! And I am very grateful for the two bands above a P. If we had 10 bands above a P, all the better. Again, the payoff of the system is for students in the latter half of the curve. Who are, I might add, not necessarily well-connected scions of Bay Street partners, etc.
  4. onepost

    U of T grading

    I can see this being true, honestly. But if law firms want to be nepotistic, classist, and racist that's on them.
  5. onepost

    U of T grading

    Yeah, I mean we all want to be on the top half of the curve, and trying to get there is always going stressful. But when the dust settles, half the class will fall short -- and when they do the consequences are less severe because of the P. And I think you can (i) take advantage of that, and (ii) if you can keep it in mind, grades are less stressful. That's all. I find it hard to point to a significant downside of the current system.
  6. onepost

    U of T grading

    I am prepared to accept that the current system means absolutely nothing for the kind of high-performing students who are competitive for New York or clerkships or distinction or whatever gold ring they are chasing. (And nb. that these are the people who insisting that the system makes absolutely no difference!) The HH/H/P/LP system not implemented for them. It's for the people who would find themselves somewhere in the bottom half of a curve comprised of very strong students.
  7. onepost

    U of T grading

    I really would not dismiss the psychological benefits of the HH/H/P/LP system so quickly, or the benefits it has with respect to more efficient use of a law student's scarce resources. (If you don't like a particular course or are doing badly or whatever, just put that course on the back-burner. No one will know whether you were literally the bottom of the class or in the middle of the pack!) I don't know a single person who wishes we had granularly distributed grades similar to other law schools. Yes, students care about their grades and, yes, the grading system doesn't change the brute fact that there is still a visible distinction on transcripts between the top of the class and the rest. But, for the median student, the current system is totally fine. Seriously who cares whether you got a C+, B- , or a B or whatever we decide a P is equivalent to at another law school? Are employers not hiring U of T students because Ps are inscrutable? I don't think so. The grades are Good.
  8. onepost

    Possibility to get a job after JD without PR

    Not immigration advice but you probably wouldn't want to or need to use the USMCA/NAFTA provision. It's three years, renewable, but with no path to immigration -- and it's tied to your specific employment (not just employer, but the position IIRC). It's also (and this is bordering on semantics, but whatever) not per se a visa. In contrast to the US, Canada is much better about granting skilled worker/post-graduation visas (from the skilled worker's perspective) and there's really no element of 'luck' to it, unlike the H1B lottery. Again, I would be very surprised if you had to rely on the NAFTA 'visa'... But, yes, if you were to use NAFTA status you'd need a letter from your employer and a physical copy (like, literally the one you get framed) of your law school diploma. You bring the letter and diploma to the border and 'apply' there.
  9. I know a few people who have done this through U of T's LLM (top international firm, finished LMM, presumably completed the NCA process, now working in Canada). So it's definitely possible -- but I wouldn't describe it as easy. My hunch is that the NCA process might be a bit more onerous for someone coming from a civil law background. If you search for 'NCA' or 'National Committee on Accreditation' process here, you'll likely find some good information. As for landing at something equivalent to a Magic Circle or US international firm in Canada after qualification, I am not certain. The examples I know of are now working in cool areas -- but not on Bay Street (slang for Big Law, here). It wouldn't shock me to hear that your job prospects will in large part depend on your practice area and the jurisdiction in which were first qualified. Given that you are from a civil law background, I can imagine that it'd be significantly easier to do corporate work than litigation in the large-firm context. Hope that is clear/helpful!
  10. onepost

    2019 Admission cycle discussion

    My sense is that U of T has been placing greater emphasis on the GPA in admissions. I think there's a source for that somewhere, but I can't be bothered to find it. The notion that a high LSAT is a bar or roadblock to employment is ridiculous. To the extent there is any correlation, it's clearly spurious and the result of a confounding variable (because, as Providence mentioned, no one will ever know your LSAT except in so far as they know it was good enough to get you into U of T). As has been stressed ad nauseam on this forum, one you have an OCI, grades are of relatively little importance next to 'fit' and other soft factors. There are folks out there with near-perfect LSATs but weaker soft skills and it's not surprising that the LSAT might be negatively correlated with such skills.
  11. onepost

    NYC for Canadian JDs

    You should look into writing the New York bar ASAP (including the MPRE). You should also ensure that you have 50 hours of pro bono completed before the end of this year, and that you have the required form filled out. You need the pro bono hours to be admitted to the bar, the work you do in law school counts. I imagine it’ll be easier to do them now then when you move to NYC. I would try to reach out to alumni of your law school. Use LinkedIn. Explain the situation and your expectations. They will likely be more motivated and better able to help you than the folks on this forum. I don’t have much other advice to give. I think this will be difficult. The sooner you can say ‘I am admitted to the New York bar’ and not ‘I have a Canadian JD,’ the better.
  12. It's probably closer to a third but yes, if you want to go on exchange in 3L it's very close to guaranteed (although you're not guaranteed a particular placement). EDIT: A bunch of the class opts out of exchange for a variety of reasons. I'd note that it's actually quite expensive, as you still pay U of T tuition in addition to travelling expenses etc.
  13. Leaving aside the career options for a second, I've been very grateful for the opportunity to spend the last few years with my classmates at U of T. I'm constantly inspired by my peers. Even if it makes the curve a nightmare, there are upsides to surrounding yourself with the most ambitious and brilliant people you can find. It's really struck me as a good, kind, and interesting class. I often find myself sitting in class just flabbergasted at the number of brilliant people. And, to be honest, I have worked harder and learned more because of it. I know that's all kinda intangible, but law school can and should be about more than securing an articling position. (And, to be frank, going to U of T isn't a bad way to cross that hurdle.) I accept that I might well say exactly the same thing if I attended any other school. So take it with a grain of salt! But I think it's worth articulating. We all only get to do this once.
  14. onepost

    1L Notes, CANs, and exams

    I am always in a similar position to you -- I take notes differently every class (generally in OneNote or handwritten) depending on the style of the prof lecturing, and they are often very messy. But I always make a summary out of my material that is well-organized, reflective of how I think about the material cohering as a 'body of law,' and basically stylistically consistent from class-to-class. As Prof. Reader and Jaggers suggested, that process is how I, many others, and you (hopefully) will learn. You may have a slightly steeper climb, but (to keep a metaphor going) it's just exercise: the harder you have to work to get to the top, the fitter you will be once you get there. Buckle down and focus on making a good map out of what you have (using others' to supplement as necessary), and you'll be fine.
  15. Lioness’ post is excellent. However, Canada does have a most-elite undergraduate institution: It’s Trinity College, U of T. There are impressive programs out there (looking at Queen’s Commerce, etc.), but Trinity, as an institution, is head and shoulders above any other college or university. It’s the closest you can get to the network-effects of the US/UK super-elite. I went to none of these schools. Fight me.