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Karadayi

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  1. The newsletter doesn't prove that Osgoode places better than Ottawa. It only proves that more Osgoode students end up working in Toronto than Ottawa students. Given that those Osgoode students chose to study in Toronto, it's no surprise that more of them choose to work there as well, and it's equally no surprise that a lot of Ottawa students choose to stay and work in Ottawa. Theoretically, it could be that 100% of the Ottawa students who apply to Toronto jobs get those jobs, and that would change the whole discussion. Obviously, I doubt that to be the case, but it just goes to show that when we don't have access to the number of students from each school who actually apply to those jobs, we shouldn't take the statistics at face value. That being said, I would probably choose Osgoode over Ottawa if I were certain I wanted to end up in Toronto (for networking purposes). I would only choose Ottawa in your circumstances if: 1) I wanted to give myself the best shot at the Ottawa market 2) I'd be miserable studying at Osgoode 3) I wanted to develop legal skills in both English and French 4) I had an interest in civil law Hope that helps.
  2. Ottawa Courses in pretty much every area of law The option to take said courses in either English or French On a related note, the option to improve French language abilities Proximity to the Supreme Court and Parliament The option to take civil law courses, or better yet, complete a civil law degree and open up another legal market for oneself I saw two posts recently comparing Ottawa to another school and the main "pro" these two posts cited with respect to the other school was "prestige". Usually a 0L's notion of prestige is based on an outdated Maclean's ranking. However, what most of these students neglect is the fact that those rankings don't really mean anything. For example, elite firm hiring is included in the measurement, but this doesn't take into account the fact that Ottawa students generally go for, and dominate, government positions. Nor does it measure the success rate of those students who actually do apply to elite firms. So, unless there's some sort of secret bonus that firms have been paying hire-backs for "prestige", I'd think again if that was my main reason for choosing a school. Edit: If we really want to define prestige, I think most people would agree that the opportunity to mingle with Supreme Court judges would be far more prestigious than an outdated magazine ranking of our nation's law schools, no?
  3. From what I've heard, the reason that uOttawa's rate at the Quebec bar is low is due to the fact that the program doesn't require as many mandatory upper year courses as other Quebec law schools, and students who neglect to take such courses end up struggling during bar school. Accordingly, if one makes sure to take the same core courses that other Quebec schools require, it should off-set the difference. That said, I don't think anyone is arguing that the PDC program will prepare you for the Quebec bar as much as a pure civil law program would. Like I mentioned before, if Quebec is the primary objective, then a civil law degree should be pursued. However, my opinion is that if working in Quebec is anything but a primary objective, then it would be wiser to pursue a common law degree, or a joint program like the PDC or the National Program.
  4. If your intention is to work in a common law province, and what you truly want is common law, I think you've pretty much made up your mind. PDC is a good option if there's still a little bit of doubt as to whether you do want to end up in Quebec right after graduation or not. However, you'll have, I'd say on average, 1 to 2 more courses per year compared to the regular common law students. Edit: I wouldn't recommend working in your first year regardless of which program you choose. I think common law is the appropriate choice in two scenarios: (1) you intend to work outside of Quebec, or (2) you're unsure where you want to work (given that it provides more options than a civil degree). I think the PDC might be a good option for you based on the reasons I stated above.
  5. Congrats everyone. Were you asked to write the test by uOttawa or UdeM? If you intend to work in a common law province, I would definitely choose the JD or PDC over a pure civil program.
  6. Just wanted to give my opinion on a few of these: 1) While this is in a way true, it doesn't down play the amount of business law classes available. You can really specialize in anything at Ottawa given that being a larger law school does come with the benefit of a wide range of course options + there's a business law clinic. 2) Not necessarily. Ottawa will give you the best shot at the Ottawa market, while still allowing you to apply for jobs in Toronto. I think law school performance will be more relevant to Toronto employers than which Ontario law school you attend, so it really comes down to how much a person cares about increasing their chances for Ottawa employment. 4) The city vibe has been improving steadily on a yearly basis, and like someone on here once said, Ottawa is starting to have almost everything available in Toronto and Montreal, but just one of each for the time being. So there's plenty to do nowadays, and there's currently a lot being invested into improving the city. 5) This is bad? 9) True, but probably true of most, if not every school 10) Part of this just isn't true. While the civil law students are definitely younger on average, there isn't anyone who's 17.. You need a minimum of one year of prior university studies in order to apply to civil law, so given that most people aren't even done high school at 17, I wouldn't worry about running into any 17 year olds.
  7. Given that I'm not finished law school yet and haven't looked into the question too deeply, I can't say much on it, though Ive heard it to be the case, and it doesn't necessarily surprise me - although I did hear that something was being done about it. That said, this is just another reason why I think it's important to view the French common law program as a bilingual program rather than a purely French one (even though the French requirements are strict). I personally plan to take the bar in English, not only for the potential problem you mentioned, but also to solidify my knowledge of the legal terminology in both languages. Our study materials definitely present us with complex documents in both languages, however someone who is significantly uncomfortable in English may only take in what he or she learns in French, rely on previous French summaries of English cases, etc. and may therefore be faced with some problems down the road if, for example, there may be some advantages to taking the bar in English, or the person wants to work in Bay-St level corporate. None of these obstacles are insurmountable of course, I just think it's important for students to know the actual nature of the program, and the social context of practice thereafter, so that they can be prepared and willing to perfect their skills in both languages. Edit: I want to clarify that I do think there is great reason and merit in administering properly written French Bar exams, since it upholds the linguistic rights of Francophone lawyers and since many people graduate the program with the specific desire to work in the Francophone communities in Ontario and across the country (outside Quebec), and thus to whom a lot of what I'm saying may not necessarily apply. I guess my concluding point is that this program's mandate is to ensure that legal services can be properly and equally provided in both official languages (not just English), which for obvious reasons would require an improvement of the French bar exam if those problems actually do exist.
  8. Well, one of the mandate's of the FCML program is to train lawyers who will be able to provide legal services in French to the Franco-Ontarian community and the French-Canadian community living outside of Quebec. In that sense, it is not necessarily out of the question to end up working for a firm where the large majority of clients are Francophone and where you therefore conduct most of your work in French. That could very well be a possibility even in Toronto. That being said, if you are interested in corporate jobs, or Bay Street, then that will implicate different considerations. I personally have a preference for those sorts of jobs and I don't think completing this program will put me at a disadvantage for the reasons I stated above. Being able to operate in both languages will never be a disadvantage, and in almost all cases, it will be an advantage. HOWEVER, if you are in fact interested in Toronto corporate/Bay-St. jobs and feel like you can't convince an employer that you will be able to work in English, then yes, I do believe that it will be a disadvantage. This is the case not because you would have attended the French common law program, but rather because English is a necessity for those jobs. I highly doubt there is a presumption among Toronto employers that students coming out of the FCML program can't operate in English, and I definitely know of people from this program who are currently working on Bay St. and NYC. To conclude what I was saying about McGill, I'm not so sure that it's as easy/possible to complete the program entirely in French as it would be to complete it in English, but someone who actually attended McGill can clarify that point for you.
  9. I'm a student currently in the French Common Law Program. I'll start by saying that I speak multiple languages, and French is not my first language. What people need to understand about the French Common Law Program is that, while all teaching and course work is conducted and completed in French, the program is nevertheless a common law program and it is training students for the Ontario bar. Accordingly, a lot of your readings and course materials will be in English. When I think about my experience, I definitely see it as one where I'm studying in both languages, and I consider that an advantage. We are basically trained and taught to use the law in all it's glory, which comes with some practical advantages since, in most cases, unilingual lawyers will not have the added benefit of being able to interpret the law in both official languages. This is in addition, as mentioned by the other posters above, to the advantage one has in being bilingual when applying to jobs. As for McGill, from what I gather, the program doesn't require the same level of French competency. In fact, I think many people have been able to get through the McGill Law program without using much French at all. I guess the way I like to see it is that the FCML program at uOttawa is bilingual, with a strong emphasis on French competency given that it's easy to get away with doing everything in English if those stringent requirements weren't imposed (so one needs to be more than just passively bilingual as is the case at McGill). That being said, if you are extremely uncomfortable in English, then perhaps a Civil Law program would be more suited to your needs? I'm not one to advocate taking the easier way out, but I just think it's important for people to realize that as important as French is to the FCML program, it doesn't downplay the importance of English. Hope that helps.
  10. No, what I'm saying is that it is primarily the GPA achieved in law school that matters. However, great GPA's aren't limited to UofT. While I agree with you about the general quality of the student body, I repeat, it's not the entire student body that's being selected/interviewed, but rather individual candidates. The student body is obviously extremely relevant when NY firms choose which law schools to conduct OCIs at, however, this doesn't prevent top candidates from other schools from applying to NY firms on their own. In addition, I find it an exaggeration to claim that a JD/MBA student from UofT with "pretty good grades" has an equal shot as a Windsor grad with straight As who clerked at the Supreme Court. I think you're over-exaggerating the name of the school as a "signal" and downplaying other relevant factors, GPA included..
  11. I definitely don't disagree. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's not the schools themselves that place better, but the individual candidates within those schools. If you were to take all the students from UofT and swap them with the students at uSask, you'd probably see NY firms develop a sudden interest in uSask students and a sudden drop of interest in UofT students .... Simply put, going back to my initial point, if you have the potential to make it to NY, the Canadian law school you choose to go to isn't going to be the make or break factor.
  12. Did you ever think that it could be because NY firms know that there will be a higher proportion of UofT, McGill, and Osgoode students interested in NY jobs in the first place? I don't think NY firms are going to waste their time conducting OCIs at schools where less than a handful of students are even interested in working in NY. Furthermore, the fact that NY firms don't interview at your school does not mean that you as an individual candidate can't attain such a job. Law firms want the best candidates, and want to maximize profits while minimizing expenses, like any other business. These are all reasons which could explain why they are conscientious about which schools are worth their time and effort in terms of OCIs, as well as why the school you go to isn't necessarily determinative of what you can put on the table as an individual candidate.
  13. So, basically, if one is an accomplished student accepted into both Queens and Ottawa, and chooses Ottawa, then one is no longer an accomplished student? (edit to clarify: your post makes it seems as though choosing a school with the highest number of accomplished students possible (1) determines the quality of the school itself; and (2) determines the success of the individual student. The reality is, an accomplished student will shine/succeed at regardless which school he or she attends, and employers hire students not schools). And how does this address which school better serves the OP's interests? As for the Toronto recruit, how do you know? Because of the Ultra-Vires article? Well, do you know how many people applied from Ottawa to Toronto in the first place? Again, raw numbers vs. proportions..... Not to mention, no one here seemed to bring up Ottawa's greater success in the Government recruits, or higher number of Supreme Court clerkships, their presence in social justice, etc. etc. all of which will probably be more relevant to the OP's interests than the Toronto big law recruit....... And what exactly is your "assertion"? We have a lawyer on this board who already thinks these claims are unfounded. All you've said so far is that Ottawa expanded, they screwed themselves, some lawyers somewhere told me this.
  14. Lower success rate of Ottawa students in finding articling positions? Says who? Source? Or was it one of those people who doesn't know the difference between raw numbers and proportions? Please help us by expanding on this mysterious expansion dilemma you speak of. Oh, and I'm guessing Osgoode must be in the gutter considering they began admitting 300 students before Ottawa ever did....
  15. No. There was a discussion on this site a while ago where it appeared as though "French program" Ottawa students had a lower articling rate than other programs, but after further investigation it was shown that the French common law students obtain articling positions at pretty much the exact same rate as other law students, and that it was students coming from the Quebec civil law programs to do the 1-year national program at Ottawa who were having a disproportionately difficult time finding articling positions in Ontario (presumably because most were weaker candidates and unable to obtain articling positions in Quebec, explaining why they would spend an extra year completing the national program).
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