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leafs_law last won the day on November 25 2016

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  1. Based on subsequent op posts this doesn’t seem to apply in this situation but it is very good general advice. At some firms one could swing this type of arrangement as a secondment. Edit: I’ll also say, at my firm, they’re always telling us “we don’t want you to leave but if you decide to go in-house just tell us and we’ll find you a job with a client”. Of course the idea is to enhance the client relationship but it works out for all involved.
  2. I think what you're saying here is that it's generally the Bay Street gunners who are participating in the business law clinic. And, in my experience, you are correct. But for the one kid in any given year who actually wants to do small town or small scale solicitor work, I think it would be a pretty good approximation of their future practice - no idea what that kid is on about, though.
  3. I ended up doing a few moots and clinics in law school because I hated lectures. One was the business clinic - I hated it - there is no amount of money you could pay me to do business law. In contrast, if I could do some of the stuff I did in the poverty law clinic for free now, I would. But, saying “real business law clients aren’t looking to be assisted by law students” is like saying “real accused clients aren’t looking to be assisted by law students”. And both would be true, or both would be false, depending on how you look at it. At a business law clinic you’re not dealing with Walmart, you’re dealing with recent grad Stu who wants to incorporate his first business or apply for his first trademark. And, of course, at the poverty law clinic you’re not dealing with Paul Bernardo. You’re dealing with Paula who hit her dog or Karen who punched someone at the Guv. But that’s just to say that they are equally real and substantive, but not equally interesting depending on what you like.
  4. This is my take as well. I did some intense moots in law school and, a few years into practice, I still think back to my moot coaching when it comes to written or oral advocacy. Edit: Just to add I also volunteered at a clinic and did a course credit clinic and those were some of my favourite experiences too.
  5. They do with Bay Street first years who are employed in associate positions but I don’t have any context other than that.
  6. Can unironically confirm that these are all great firms. In particular, McLeish attracts Bay caliber (or better) lawyers (though some would consider McL under the Bay umbrella).
  7. It’s a bit open to debate which is the better of these two firms.
  8. It’s nice the rates are standard now. When I was applying about 10 years ago the banks were just beginning to think about law student LoCs in an organized way. I had to show up to my branch with printouts from this forum. Then they had to call a bunch of other branches to see if the info was legit. Then I finally got what was becoming the going rate.
  9. No level of involuntary celibacy cannot be countered by the proper amount of negging.
  10. As much as I sometimes make light of this sort of story, those who know me know my story of “allegedly” dating two girls in law school at the same time and the absolute carnage that might have unfolded. To say that it divided a class is a bit of hyperbole but not as much as it should be. And to say that the divide has lasted into professional networking would just be accurate. (quotes used ironically)
  11. This is so true. Getting thrown in the deep end teaches you how to deal with being inexperienced and unprepared and still somehow managing to get by. But self-teaching has obvious limits... A truly great junior experience, in my opinion, is among the most annoying: when you’re not allowed to do anything yourself, until experienced lawyers have total faith that you’re ready to go it alone I do say this being somewhat biased. For my first couple of years, I was barely allowed to send emails to clients on my own. Certainly any pleadings and opinions I was drafting would be reviewed. And if I was at a hearing I was there to provide support. But because everything that I did as a junior was reviewed by partners first, and then our client second (usually in-house counsel with their own expertise), everything I do now from emails to oral advocacy was previously vetted, polished, and the product of incredible mentorship. Any error I made as a new call was under a microscope and that level of oversight led to me making far fewer errors as I gained experience, and as I developed my own expertise and began to work without oversight. It reminds me of an anecdote from my first summer, before I went to Bay. Then, one of our articling students commented on how they attended at a motion near the end of articling and were up against an articling student on Bay, and they couldn’t believe it was the Bay student’s first solo motion when our student had done (maybe) hundreds. The student at my (then) firm was a verifiable idiot, and sure they were more comfortable in court solo than was the Bay student, but they also never had the opportunity to learn from senior counsel and become not-an-idiot. So, there’s a way to rationalize any experience but, in my opinion, those experiences that benefit from the most oversight and mentorship are most helpful in lawyer development.
  12. I put all my upper year courses on Monday and Tuesday so that I could enjoy the rest of the week, focus on mooting, and have the opportunity to visit home if I wanted to. It does limit the courses that are available to you and requires some luck with mandatory courses being available on those days, but I found that not having this or that random course through the rest of the week helped me keep healthy balance and not waste as much time on things I didn’t want to waste time on.
  13. The terms are employee and employer. An employment relationship is not a creditor/debtor relationship and isn’t even similar enough to be workable as an analogy... come on now
  14. OP, the general practices you describe are pretty standard for a bay st firm in terms of being given non-billable work, being asked not to bill your time, or having time written off or down. It’s not encouraged, but it happens a lot. The difference is that, on bay, usually, you get billable credit for the time you enter even if it is written down later and it doesn’t matter if it’s ultimately billed or collected, which would appear to make it easier to get hours than your situation. So, yes, to the extent that you think that you shouldn’t be given non-billable work or shouldn’t have your time written off, you are being overly sensitive and out of touch. Also keep in mind that, on bay, the 1800, or whatever amount, billable hour target is usually accompanied by another 200-300 non-billable hours. However, it also sounds like your firm’s practices might be affecting the bargain that you struck, or thought you struck. Which may be, in part, due to you having been naive to the bargain’s reality when you accepted the offer. But if it’s to the extent that they are essentially precluding you from promised compensation, through actions that are legitimately changing the bargain that was actually made, that’s a big problem and you should raise it with them. I personally regularly end up with a disproportionate amount of non-billable work because of my experience and interest in a particular sub-field of my area of practice, and I regularly remind the partners at my firm of that and make sure to obtain assurances that those hours will “count”.
  15. Right now the market for juniors is that many are seeing reduced salaries or being laid off and not being able to find new work. I have friends in small civil litigation and criminal shops who have been laid off indefinitely. So, it might seem naive to negotiate using pre-pandemic salary figures and employment prospects. Which isn’t to say you shouldn’t negotiate, it’s just to say that May 2020 is not Jan 2020 and employers are keenly aware of that. Currently, a small shop could offer some laid off 4th year the usual salary of a 1st year and have it accepted.
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