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Showing content with the highest reputation since 09/22/18 in all areas

  1. 17 points
    Thank God someone finally showed up and told us the TRUTH. Seven years into practice, I've finally found the guru who'll educate me.
  2. 12 points
    Remarkable resume for someone too dumb to do a few minutes of simple research.
  3. 11 points
    The real question is why they would want to appear in a publication where the adjacent article is titled, "My job at an Etobicoke rub-and-tug"
  4. 9 points
    Do you have other offers or is this it? You are working from a bad premise. You think that there are people making more than you and you think that that is a measure of your worth. What you get paid has nothing to do with your worth and everything to do with what your employer can afford. Do you think your employer makes the average amount or above it? Does the firm have lots of cash clients? Can you hustle work for them and ask for a percentage of what you bring in? Do you otherwise like the firm? There is so much more to consider than “other people make more than me.”
  5. 9 points
    Sigh, so literal. I jumped on this thread with excitement that we were all going to pile on and bash OCIs as "noise."
  6. 8 points
    I think the fair takeaway is that by 3L all that glorious free money the bank was handing out early on in 1L - more than many of us have ever had access to in our lives to this point - this turns into a massive millstone of anxiety, and anything you can reasonably due to minimize that weight is a good idea.
  7. 8 points
    Looking beyond OP's melodrama, he/she does raise two valid points, which I will slightly rephrase: Nepotism and unmeritorious hiring practices are quite prevalent in law, at least from my experience, and the concept of "fit" can be toxic. Equally, the level of self-entitlement among law students is extraordinary. "I deserve that job, because I go to UofT. You don't want to hire that dunce from Windsor." Well fuck, I should kiss your feet and hire you right now.
  8. 7 points
    You know, the “seven sisters” moniker is getting so tired. Wasn’t it created nearly two decades ago? Can we come up with something better? Also these questions are a bit silly. I mean, what do people think the answer is? No? No one has ever, in the history of OCIs, has ever deigned to decline an in-firm with a Sister, lest their career prospects be scuttled at the outset, and be relegated to the lower echelons of the Tremendous Thirteen instead? Of course people have declined interviews with these firms. I know of several. It happens all the time. If you’re an alternate and hoping for a spot: you may indeed get one. If you’re a fortunate interviewee, then you can safely say “no” for another firm you like more without raising the ire of anyone.
  9. 7 points
    Too imperialistic, white nationalist, divisive, confusing, etc etc? And in typical LSO fashion, done with zero consultation. At least the new logo perfectly encapsulates them as an institution: endlessly going round and round in circles.
  10. 7 points
    Totally natural. Does not help that a lot of us lawyer types deal with self-conciousness and uncertainty by loudly pretending we know everything. You end up in a room with three other students / young Calls making jokes about how some one else "had no idea" about X, when the fact is until yestreday, they didn't either. So if this is coming from people around you, take it with a large grain of salt. There is a very large bump that happens when you get ejected from academia, where things were predictable, timed, equal and fair and had no actual real life consequences. Then you graduate and get dumped on your ass at the ground level of a profession where image and ego play a large part. Everyone enters off the ground floor. Some of us find the elevator, others take the stairs. Get comfortable with feeling uncomfortable. It'll take a couple years before you start repeating things to the extent that you don't get that sinking dread about how much you don't know. The work will teach you how to do it - do the work. Don't shirk, or evade, or procrastinate. Do the work. If you don't know how, think about a smart way to learn: seek out a precedent, research the case law, ask a trusted junior associate, find a mentor, consult your principle. Never make your principle your first stop - always go to them with "I need to do this and I have looked in X and Y, and I want to make sure Y is the correct route to take here." I work with students a lot. Give me the keen and interested inexperienced person over the cocky blowhard who has no clue any day. It's not what you know at this stage - you don't know anything. It's how you deal with that. Be hardworking, be curious, be friendly. The rest will come.
  11. 6 points
    Or alternatively, you could be like me: succeed in OCIs as much as possible while still winding up without a job at the end of it all. In short, putting in the maximum amount of effort without result. At the time, I felt terrible and a failure. Undoubtedly, it was the best thing that could have happened to me, considering the opportunities that opened up to me afterwards and where I am now (which is very happy and working somewhere I love). I would never be here, were I not put in the position of actually having to investigate the kinds of legal jobs that would genuinely interest me, and give me valuable experience, and then pursue those vigorously. Relax. I know it is difficult to do this during what can be a trying process. But really, relax. Do your best, taking the above advice into account; go for the job you want. But remember all along that if it doesn't work out with that job, then it wasn't meant to be which in many cases is a fantastic result! Because it rules out jobs that were probably never going to fulfill you anyway.
  12. 6 points
  13. 6 points
    And if all employers were like your firm, great. But there are many - or at least some - employers who are more inclined to offer significantly less, and expect someone to know their worth and ask for more, and have contempt for those who don't. Maybe it's fair to expect someone who's worked for you for a year to recognize you're not like that. But in a non-hireback situation, an outside candidate, if the amount offered is less than what they (with some reasonable basis) think is fair, how are they supposed to know that you are fairness personified?
  14. 6 points
    Man, I made a crack about this post in the morning, and by the time I could return and outline what I was really thinking, it's already on page three. So here's my deconstruction. It isn't that I radically disagree with everything the OP wrote, it's just there's such a mix of topics and points in such a short declaration. And while I don't think the OP was being intentionally manipulative, this is a popular technique. Muddy up several topics together, and suddenly it's hard to know what people are arguing with. Straw man arguments proliferate, and in the end everyone is just angry. Here are the broad topics I see in OP's post: 1. Law school is too expensive relative to the employment marketplace. 2. Prestige (or the illusion of it) didn't get me what I expected. 3. The only good jobs are on Bay Street, and nothing else is worth talking about. 4. If you don't have an articling job in September of 3L, you know you're already one of the losers of the profession. 5. Someone lied to me about any or all of the above. And here are my replies: 1. I think most people would agree with this. If it isn't terminal yet, it's heading in the wrong direction. If you confined your points to this concern, I think you'd find a lot of agreement here. 2. I don't know why anyone would say they go to a "Toronto school." We know you mean Osgoode, okay? In a context where you are citing prestige, if you went to U of T you'd say U of T. I don't know where you got the idea that going to a fairly good law school in Ontario, with a grossly inflated cohort, would by itself get you something. But that's a strange idea. Of course there are students from other schools doing well. And see point above. If your argument is that you're better off minimizing debt, I'd readily agree. If your argument is that it's strange anyone from Windsor has a job while Osgoode grads are still unemployed ... umm, what? 3. You're obviously only talking about Bay Street and big law OCI jobs right now because those are the only employers who have even hired so far. Confining your description of the legal marketplace to only these jobs is simply ignorant. In some ways you actually bolster your arguments by including other jobs. The worst result of ballooning tuition isn't how hard it is to pay off your debt articling on Bay. The big problem is that students may not even be able to afford to article for $30k in Family Law, or accept an associate position at $50k, even when that's what they really want to do. But right now, you're talking about big law. And that's only a slice of what's happening out there. Anyone who's view is so narrow is automatically suspect. 4. There's plenty of time yet. Seriously. Of all the aspiring professionals I know, law students are easily among the most ridiculous when they start complaining that the sky is falling because no one has yet promised them a job one full year in advance of when they even need one. Most of your classmates, who you cite as unemployed, will be fine. Many will not have exactly the jobs they aspired to. But that's not the measure of success here. If you really think that unemployed in September means your career is over before it even starts, you really need a better sense of proportion. Which brings me to... 5. The real problem with coming here with "The TRUTH" is simply this. Who are you claiming lied to you? And about what, exactly? Did law school end up costing more than you expected, or the profession not pay as well? What were you expecting and why? Did someone convince you that all Osgoode grads are treated like royalty? Did you expect that rolling with the bad boys on Bay would somehow solve all of these issues? What expectations did you go in with, exactly, and how were those expectations created? FINAL point. Where are a lot of reasons to be concerned about the legal profession in Canada, and issues that we need to resolve. But entitled students making self-important declarations is not the contribution that's going to lead to any real discussion about it. In reply to OZ - buddy, I STILL don't know who you are, where you come from, or what role you claim to have in the profession. But just so we're clear, I have no obligation to "promote freedom of speech" because I'm not a government entity. If I were a government entity, my obligation would be to not interfere with freedom of speech, rather than to promote it. And in all events, responding to a ridiculous pronouncement by pointing out that it's a ridiculous pronouncement is not in any way limiting (or failing to promote) freedom of speech. It's me voicing my opinion in reply to someone else's opinion. It would make as much sense to accuse you of interfering with my speech, at this point. There is no freedom of speech I'm aware of, anywhere in human history, that suggests anyone has a right to be taken seriously. You're free to sound like an idiot, and I'm free to call you an idiot. Just as I'm doing now.
  15. 5 points
    I fail to see the relevancy but alright: I won junior and senior athlete of the Year for leading 3 of my highschool teams to winning records for the first time in 5 years. I also just missed provincials by losing out in the final of my region's tennis tournament. No I didn't list any of this in my law school applications. Nor did I think to since the instructions are fairly clear.
  16. 5 points
    I think you're confusing law students with med students....
  17. 5 points
    Definitely look into schools that will drop your lowest marks, you'll want that GPA as close to a 4.0 as possible if you want a shot. Consider re-writing the LSAT as well, aim for at least a 180. Edit: This is sarcasm, you will get into every school in Canada and America.
  18. 5 points
    I think what the people on this forum don't realize is that there are tons of legal jobs outside of Bay Street and the government. They make up excuses for why some/many students can't find jobs, but the reality is that there are many firms outside of Toronto and small/mid-sized in nature that would happily take you without connections and grades, if you show strong interest in their practice area, are personable and don't come across as someone who'll get up and leave once articling is done. Many of these firms also don't post in your school's career development portal, so you have to take the initiative to reach out to them. This forum will make you believe that everyone from Osgoode is clerking, working on Bay or in international firms. That's a quarter of the class. The remaining 70% of Osgoode's class are working in government, small/mid-sized firms, outside of Toronto, doing the Ryerson LPP, shared articles (I know 3 people in my graduating class doing this) and even unpaid articles (I know 2 people doing this). No, they were not all "C" students, and most were in the average "B" range. This forum is a circle jerk, where the only Osgoode students that I've seen are ones with great grades that landed clerkships and Bay Street jobs. Someone who doesn't go to this school will assume that the hiring stats are great, but really most people find a job on their own and only a quarter of our class lands a job through OCIs. There were many students in my class with strong B+/A grades that did not land OCIs and ended up working in smaller civil litigation firms.
  19. 5 points
    I believe we should encourage people to express their point of view instead of ridicule them, even if we are 20 years into practice.
  20. 4 points
    Absolutely this. You need to maximize your chances of getting an offer and as providence said in another post, it's not your concern if you're taking an opportunity from someone else. That's life. You can't take anything for granted even if you are an excellent applicant. I saw many classmates with fantastic grades who had a full slate of OCI interviews strike out everywhere. I also had a close friend with fantastic grades (I think her lowest mark was a B+) who received an interview at just about every place she applied, but who didn't end up receiving an offer until the summer after 3L. She looked great on paper but I assume there were interview/fit issues. Bottom line is if you're able to handle it and you could see yourself accepting a job in city A (even though it's not your ideal situation), I'd go for it to maximize your chances of getting a job.
  21. 4 points
    Since none of us know anything about the OP other than what he/she has posted in his/her question, let's stop the leaping to conclusions and piling on.
  22. 4 points
    Not what you or others were getting at, so kind of a tangent, but I really dislike equating success or choices in purely monetary terms. If they are happier and less stressed and have a better relationship with each other in part because of choices they've made, I think that's great. Less money may be the better choice, big picture, when one looks beyond the merely financial. Not a great fit for this topic, but I was reminded of this ABA article I read recently about women leaving the law (written by one woman focusing on her experience, but also drawing broader conclusions). I did find interesting, and very plausible, her thought that more women than men may leave law, not because men don't want to, but because situationally they're not as free to leave? http://www.abajournal.com/voice/article/I_am_a_woman_who_left_the_law/?icn=most_read
  23. 4 points
    Your conclusion about salaries is based on 3 examples. I made close to 100K as a new call recently. Boutique firm not in Toronto. And I didn't have to act for insurance companies.
  24. 4 points
    Careful now. The bolded above is what articling students do. It’s not grounds to ask for more money. It’s one thing to ask for more if you can confidently say that they’re offering below the street, it’s another to ask for more because you did articling student things.
  25. 4 points
    Considering the fact that I had all A’s in my last year of undergrad, I wouldn’t necessarily say I’m not smart enough for law school itself. I know some great lawyers who did average on the LSAT. Thanks for your input though
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