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  2. You're absolutely right that I would take the job at the salary offered.. I know exactly what position I am in given what month it is, and regrettably, I know the alternative is to do the LPP, at an additional cost that I will have to bear myself. That being said, I know I would regret it if I didn't at least try to negotiate a better salary. I am just hoping to do in a way that is non-offensive and doesn't cost me the job, ergo the post here asking for advice, given I have a total of 0 experience dealing with something similar. Thank you
  3. Okay, first off, you simply don't "estimate your value as a student" at all. Trying to do that will confuse your entire attitude towards your relationship in this context. Anyone hiring an articling student wants them for some reason or other. It isn't entirely charity. But in some contexts the main "value" of a student is simply the opportunity to recruit capable future associates at an early stage. In other contexts the student may be performing productive, potentially valuable work for the employer. In still others, the main value of a student is the enjoyment of teaching someone. Trying to pin it down to some kind of economic formula is absolutely counter-productive. To the OP's actual question, no one is going to tell you that you should accept a position for less than you deserve to be paid. And note that in this context I'm using "deserve to be paid" as a description of what you believe yourself to be worth (which is an attitude we're all entitled to - divorced from any calculation of what we earn for our employer) and certainly not for less than minimum wage. But that said, your later comments reveal a strikingly weak bargaining position. You want to ask for more but you're afraid to lose the offer you have ... which really means that you are willing and able to work for what they've offered if you have to, right? This is bargaining 101. The only way to bargain from a position of strength is if you're willing to walk away. If you aren't ... well, find a way to ask for more if you can. But you might as well put your cards on the table as you do it. Because it's the end of May already and if you're still looking for articles your potential future employer isn't stupid. They know you're desperate for anything and even unpaid positions have a slew of applicants right now. I'm not saying that's good. I'm just saying that's what is. Also be aware that the economics of the situation may or may not even allow the potential employer to pay more. Do not approach any conversation like you know the first thing about the financial realities of running a legal practice. You just don't. Approach it from your own, subjective perspective. As in "I really want to work here, but I need to eat too - can you help me out at all?" And be prepared for all possible replies to that request. Know in advance what you're willing to stay for, and what you're willing to walk away from. Good luck.
  4. Today
  5. I spoke to Leanne on Tuesday and my understanding is they no longer give out waitlist numbers. She did mention the waitlist has not moved at all which is discouraging
  6. I paid my deposit to uOttawa before I was accepted at Osgoode. Never saw that $500 again. I just pretended my 1L tuition was $500 more. Actually forgot about it until I saw this post. Repression is your friend. Consider it a drop in the bucket compared to three years of law school, and, in the end, a fair price to pay for getting into my top choice of school.
  7. Exactly! I want to ask for a better salary, but I don't want to risk losing this position for being too difficult. SIGHZ.
  8. Thanks! I'll try that. Hopefully I can get some sort of additional compensation!
  9. 156+ and you have a good shot at Osgoode.
  10. I articled at a big shop. My salary was $1450/week. I know enough to know I'm not in a good position to talk about an articling position at what is clearly a small/solo practice. Not enough people around here remember to focus on their strengths instead of expecting their knowledge is universally applicable. The value of a student, in my world and in my personal practice, is like an assistant that does more substantive work, or a law clerk that I expect to learn the law a bit when doing a task and is willing to do the most basic things to free up more senior people for more senior tasks, and can cheaply assist on either good work, or work that shouldn't be done by someone billing my rate (or slightly lower). I can't ballpark the value they bring because literally everything a student can do can be done better, quicker and mostly cheaper by a junior associate. I thought I was paid fairly as an articling student, though it should probably go up given inflation and the passage of time since the last raise (unless it has gone up). But frankly as a student, I was the one getting value, because I was receiving necessary training towards becoming a lawyer, and was ultimately hired back at my firm as an associate with a good salary. A student is as much a cost and a burden as a "value". So it's not a good idea to think about "value" because a small shop can simply argue that a student is a net negative - come work for free if you want to get licensed. A student should figure out what is fair and market practice for their position and try and get that. I don't think students should work for free or accept shit salaries, but there are limits to what students earn generally, and the market they are working in will largely dictate that. An articling student in crim working for a sole practitioner or a two-three person shop in Saskatchewan shouldn't expect to earn the same amount as a student working on Bay. Anyway as I said, I defer to people that work in OP's world as to what is fair for an articling student. Even associates in that world don't necessarily make an annualized $75K, so my personal experience is wholly alien to assisting in salary negotiation. But I did know that you were wrong and off on multiple points, and shouldn't get in the habit of assuming that your history as a co-op student means it is directly applicable to being a law student/articling student. It's not. My value was also in making sure readers don't go off half-cocked assuming things about employment law that aren't true because someone states it so on the forum - there are plenty of ignorant readers here that might actually think its the case, and that's why people should avoid legal advice generally on the forum. It doesn't mean you need a lengthy disclaimer in bold every post, but does require some common sense about how you phrase and discuss things.
  11. For context, I am articling at a small firm (<10 lawyers) in the GTA. The salary isn't great, though it is higher than what you're referencing. I didn't have much luck negotiating my salary. Prospective articling students have limited bargaining power and I think most firms are aware of that. However, I was able to negotiate some perks that made my costs of living a lot more manageable, even with a not-so-great-salary. You may want to try asking for some benefits or allowances, such as payment of you LSO fees, a transportation allowance, a cellphone allowance, etc. This is the approach that worked for me.
  12. Accepted on May 13th (waitlisted April 25th) CGPA 3.66, LSAT 163, strong softs Firmly accpted
  13. My apologies into the first part then. Coop students across Canada make significantly more money than OP is making, and they teach this in undergrad as a basic "self-evaluation". I still feel like you can provide more to the conversation with your comments then. How do you properly estimate your value as the student at the firm?
  14. You're not a lawyer so I'll forgive you for using words like "illegal" without knowing that this isn't illegal, but don't get in the habit of speaking about legal realities of things you do not know about. It's bad form for a student/prospective student, it is worse for a lawyer. Suffice to say, unpaid articling or less than minimum wage is not "illegal" for articling students. Moving on, you again are not lawyer, so to say that what an articling student should be making is "1/3 of the work you can bill" is ludicrous. That may be a benchmark an associate should consider, but that's not an articling student consideration. Articling students are there to learn, they aren't meant to be profit centres, even though firms can derive value from their practice. If someone was looking to article and wanted 1/3 of what they billed, (a) I'd probably laugh, and (b) you're a student who has no control over billings - it's a terrible idea for benchmarking your pay. I'll let someone else who is in a smaller firm or has dealt with this situation weigh in for OP since in my world, everyone gets paid, and gets paid a decent amount per week, but I would strongly suggest that the OP ignore the entire post I'm quoting.
  15. Yes, Osgoode is practically a guarantee with these stats. The median GPA was 3.87 and median LSAT was 166 at U of T last year. Your GPA isn't that far below the median, and your LSAT is well above. U of T is also a lot harder to get into than Osgoode.
  16. At 40 hours a week you are making less than minimum wage. So start of with its illegal... And negotiate to what you feel provides a value to both you and the firm. About what you should be making is 1/3 of the work you can bill. What do you estimate the value of that to be? But if you are not comfortable with that ask if they can cover fees and or having a living stipend. If this is your first office job I can understand the apprehension. Good luck my dude :).
  17. Hi Everyone, I know there's a topic similar to this one already, but that one got a little sidetracked. Long story short- I am being offered an Articling position at a firm in Toronto for $500/week. Quite frankly, it's a little too less for me to be able to accept it, while still being able to pay rent/ bar fees etc. It's an incredible opportunity, and I know that in the current market, even any salary for Articles is great, but I would like a bit more. Does anyone have any tips or strategies for negotiating salaries? Thanks in advance!
  18. Moved cities, six hours away. Lots of my colleagues did too since we are from southern Ontario heading northwards. Love the people there, love the city on some days but goddamn is it bleak and winters harsh. Other than that Canadian cities are not different worlds and you adjust to cities quite easily.
  19. My understanding of the process is that compassionate grounds is a fairly low bar, it is really difficult for them to weigh compassion. Personally, I was homesick and wanted to be closer to family. I was also previously accepted to UBC and had very good law school grades. From talking with others that I knew at the time and during orientation, most students who were successful transfer applicants were quite strong law students.
  20. Solicitors aren't really well paid - patent attorneys are paid more than solicitors - solicitor are sort of an intermediary (they solicit) between the client and the barrister (as they can call a barrister before a judge) - their main job is paperwork and client care (strategy development) - they can litigate but its rare that your will see solicitors litigating (please don't quote me on that) against a barrister (who's job is to only litigate) - UK is a weird system and is fragmented. I believe they moved because of low pay and nothing more.
  21. I have met three solicitors who had excellent London legal careers in the big firms who move here for whatever reason (although I speculate its due to an unfortunate little referendum). They are in law school to fulfil bar requirements here (typically a year of courses) and are in the same courses as 1Ls. The schools aren't oriented towards a "level playing field" or anything of that matter; they care about training lawyers for the right firms and niches. If you interested in practicing in the US, I will also recommend probably going to UofT or UBC, as they have excellent name recognition abroad.
  22. Two points I will make. First is there is usually a mature crowd with full careers before them returning, lots of parents and people wanting to do a degree mid-way through. Its the same deal in medicine really; and it reflects the culture where there is a more mature attitude. Second, younger crowds adjust, not the other way most of the time. Law students typically are a bit more mature; but most start picking up professional and more "mature" ways of socialization. People also generally are more open-minded in law school than say undergrad too. It will be a certain hassle doing some stuff you absolutely do not need, e.g. first year crim and pubcon and so-on but we have engineers among us with full work experience and six-figure incomes going back to work IP. I am guessing he will likely start with a way higher income than regular JDs, since he's already super specialized and will probably be thrown into the complex IP cases. IP is a weird world full of brainiacs so I'm told but I the few lawyers I've met have like 4 degrees each.
  23. i have worked for one the biggest IP litigators in the US and IP firms in the UK/EP - most IP attorneys in UK/EP just do prosecution which is boring and i am fed-up with it. My decision to go to US/Canada is because i want to litigate. Litigating in UK is done by barristers which is a pain. US/Canada law degrees are well recogniszd across the world and it gives me an edge over european counterparts if i want to go into tech firms as counsel. They options are quite varied in my opinion. I am just worried if the law schools will discount my experience just to make it a level playing field.
  24. Common actually for engineers going into IP specializations. I've met 3-4 similar to you, super qualified people who are picked up into IP firms dealing in a specific area. Your age is actually also pretty common and you have a full advantage over the KD to JD crowd. You should take a look at the career paths of a few IP and non-IP lawyers in the big firms, a handful will have a PhD and unusual career trajectories.
  25. Even better. You have a good shot at UofT and you are a shoe in in UBC.
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