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Western vs Osgoode

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59 minutes ago, bernard said:

I'd disagree that Oz gives any sort of advantage for Bay compared to Western. 

I also think it's weird to have a discussion thread for two great schools when you haven't gotten into either of them and you're applying with a 157. If anything, this thread should be about retaking the LSAT in September to boost your chances ... 

Oh. Wow. I didn't even notice that this discussion was purely academic. My bad.

24 minutes ago, Inconspicuous said:

Look at the ultra vires numbers

The Ultra Vires numbers don't indicate that Osgoode gives any advantage on Bay St as compared to Western.
Also, Bernard works on Bay St. He's probably more familiar with Bay St hiring than any of us are.

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Going to one Ontario school vs. another won't meaningfully increase your chances of working at a Bay St/Biglaw/Downtown Toronto firm. What matters most is being a strong student at whatever school you choose to attend and having a good -- or at least interesting and/or unique -- resume/experience. It's that simple.

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1 minute ago, Rearden said:

Going to one Ontario school vs. another won't meaningfully increase your chances of working at a Bay St/Biglaw/Downtown Toronto firm. What matters most is being a strong student at whatever school you choose to attend and having a good -- or at least interesting and/or unique -- resume/experience. It's that simple.

Maybe not if you attend U of T, Osgoode, Western, and Queen's, but the ultravires numbers certainly indicate that Windsor, Ottawa, and Lakehead are at a meaningful disadvantage. 

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20 minutes ago, Deadpool said:

Maybe not if you attend U of T, Osgoode, Western, and Queen's, but the ultravires numbers certainly indicate that Windsor, Ottawa, and Lakehead are at a meaningful disadvantage. 

I disagree. This has been debated ad nauseam, and I don't want to derail this thread, but the UltraVires numbers don't necessarily -- and definitely do not certainly -- indicate that students who go to Windsor, Ottawa or Lakehead are at a disadvantage simply because they go to those schools. There are a number of other possible reasons why Windsor, Ottawa and Lakehead students do not do as well according to the UltraVires numbers. For instance, entrance standards are, I believe, generally lower at Windsor and Lakehead than at other schools; I would argue that this means there aren't, generally speaking, as many strong candidates coming from Windsor and Lakehead as there are coming from, say, UofT in any given year. And it's possible that Ottawa students would rather work in Ottawa/don't want to work in Toronto and that a number of Ottawa students don't apply to the Toronto firms that UltraVires provides stats for (and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think UltraVires tracks how many students from each school apply to the Toronto firms they provide stats for).

In essence, I don't think you can conclude from the UltraVires numbers that simply going to Windsor over Western -- or Western over Osgoode, as the case may be -- would put you at any meaningful disadvantage when it comes to Bay St/Biglaw/Downtown Toronto hiring.

Edited by Rearden

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19 minutes ago, Rearden said:

I disagree. This has been debated ad nauseam, and I don't want to derail this thread, but the UltraVires numbers don't necessarily -- and definitely do not certainly -- indicate that students who go to Windsor, Ottawa or Lakehead are at a disadvantage simply because they go to those schools. There are a number of other possible reasons why Windsor, Ottawa and Lakehead students do not do as well according to the UltraVires numbers. For instance, entrance standards are, I believe, generally lower at Windsor and Lakehead than at other schools; I would argue that this means there aren't, generally speaking, as many strong candidates coming from Windsor and Lakehead as there are coming from, say, UofT in any given year. And it's possible that Ottawa students would rather work in Ottawa/don't want to work in Toronto and that a number of Ottawa students don't apply to the Toronto firms that UltraVires provides stats for (and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think UltraVires tracks how many students from each school apply to the Toronto firms they provide stats for).

In essence, I don't think you can conclude from the UltraVires numbers that simply going to Windsor over Western -- or Western over Osgoode, as the case may be -- would put you at any meaningful disadvantage when it comes to Bay St/Biglaw/Downtown Toronto hiring.

I don't want to get into this debate either, but a lot of assumptions are made here. Ottawa's class size is 300+ and Windsor's is 250. They each place about 30 students on Bay in the OCI recruit, though less if you include the smaller firms and public interest employers like MAG, LAO, and DOJ that participate in the process. We cannot automatically make the assumption that just because these students had weaker GPAs and LSAT scores prior to law school, that they are weaker candidates for Bay Street jobs. I did very well in terms of both GPA and LSAT score in undergrad and did not land a Bay Street job. 

In addition, just because a student attends Ottawa/Windsor does not mean that that student wants to work in these respective locations. Nearly everyone that I know personally at these schools (and it's a fair number of people) were from Toronto and/or wanted to work in Toronto (Windsor more than Ottawa in this respect). I think the evidence in terms of Associate profiles on the Bay Street websites speaks for itself. You can screen them by schools attended and can see a huge disparity between Toronto/Osgoode/Western/Queen's and everyone else at all these firms. In fact, many of these firms have more Associates from McGill and Dalhousie than they do Windsor and Ottawa, and both are non-Ontario law schools. I'm just saying that even if you can ignore the ultravires statistics, you cannot ignore the data that is directly represented on these firm websites. 

Take Torys for example.

81 from U of T. 6 from Windsor (and only two of them are Partners). Meanwhile, there are 20 from Dalhousie with a fair number of Partners. There is no way that Windsor students are that much weaker than their U of T and Dalhousie counterparts just because they had a crappier undergraduate GPA and LSAT score. 

Edited by Deadpool

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Shouldn't count your chickens before they hatch

Edited by Trew
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Let's not have this neverending debate that never reaches a definitive conclusion yet again. Ad nauseum, indeed.

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