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velvet

LLM Recommendations

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Hey

Wasn't able to find a recent thread on this topic so forgive me if this is a repeat.

Looking to pursue an LLM. Interested in contract, regulatory, business/corporate, and conflict of laws, or something similar. Currently a 2L at a Western Canada University, B<->B+ GPA.

Where would be good places to focus my attention?

 

Thanks

 

***Also would appreciate general LLM advice

Edited by velvet

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It might be helpful if you provide a little more information about why you want pursue an LLM/what you hope to achieve?

Are you looking to go into academia? Do you plan to practice before/after? 

 

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Find somewhere that will let you skip straight into an sjd/phd or will count your llm as two years of  an sjd.

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13 minutes ago, ladyarglwydds said:

It might be helpful if you provide a little more information about why you want pursue an LLM/what you hope to achieve?

Are you looking to go into academia? Do you plan to practice before/after? 

 

Agreed. OP, you're talking about doing an LLM in one of any number of areas, that doesn't sound like you have a specific goal/reason/purpose to pursue an LLM.

I did a part-time professional LLM in IP through Osgoode while practising, but both years ago, and you're talking about an academic full-time LLM directly after graduating law school (I assume), so not really similar situations.

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3 minutes ago, kurrika said:

Find somewhere that will let you skip straight into an sjd/phd or will count your llm as two years of  an sjd.

Yes, especially since some of the best SJD/JSD program will only accept their own LLM students. The LLM is usually one year only. 

30 minutes ago, velvet said:

Interested in contract, regulatory, business/corporate, and conflict of laws, or something similar (....) Where would be good places to focus my attention?

Focus your attention on focusing your attention :rolleyes: You need to choose your area before you start. This is especially important because any major piece of writing you do during the LLM will be a central part of your application for an SJD/JSD (if that's your plan). 

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Thanks for the responses.

I agree that my focus will need refining; my concern right now is, at a broad level, choosing the right school. I have a feeling that schools specialize in fields of study. For example, I know the graduate students at my location all have a common denominator that I am not interested in studying in detail.

The reason I would like to pursue an LLM is for a potential academic future and a competitive resume. Summer hiring so far hasn't been fruitful, and I am worried that the job opportunities in these practice areas will erode. I also would like to teach, whether part-time or on a tenure track. 

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33 minutes ago, secondchance said:

Yes, especially since some of the best SJD/JSD program will only accept their own LLM students. 

This isn't true of Canadian schools--I'm thinking of UofT and McGill, which would arguably be the top schools here.

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Just now, ProfReader said:

This isn't true of Canadian schools--I'm thinking of UofT and McGill, which would arguably be the top schools here.

True, I was thinking of the US programs. It's still an advantage to do your LLM at the same school since it gives you a chance to connect with potential thesis supervisor(s)

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1 minute ago, secondchance said:

True, I was thinking of the US programs. It's still an advantage to do your LLM at the same school since it gives you a chance to connect with potential thesis supervisor(s)

Most people argue the opposite--that you should spread out your education across institutions, as it enables you to develop a broader network (i.e. to write you references for faculty positions).

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4 hours ago, velvet said:

Hey

Wasn't able to find a recent thread on this topic so forgive me if this is a repeat.

Looking to pursue an LLM. Interested in contract, regulatory, business/corporate, and conflict of laws, or something similar. Currently a 2L at a Western Canada University, B<->B+ GPA.

Where would be good places to focus my attention?

 

Thanks

 

***Also would appreciate general LLM advice

On your GPA.

U of T, for example, has a minimum LLM admission standard of a B+ average in your final year - that's minimum, not competitive.

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3 hours ago, velvet said:

Thanks for the responses.

I agree that my focus will need refining; my concern right now is, at a broad level, choosing the right school. I have a feeling that schools specialize in fields of study. For example, I know the graduate students at my location all have a common denominator that I am not interested in studying in detail.

The reason I would like to pursue an LLM is for a potential academic future and a competitive resume. Summer hiring so far hasn't been fruitful, and I am worried that the job opportunities in these practice areas will erode. I also would like to teach, whether part-time or on a tenure track. 

I don’t think an LLM will do you much good in getting a legal job. 

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19 hours ago, velvet said:

The reason I would like to pursue an LLM is for a potential academic future and a competitive resume. Summer hiring so far hasn't been fruitful, and I am worried that the job opportunities in these practice areas will erode. I also would like to teach, whether part-time or on a tenure track. 

You need to look long and hard at why summer hiring "hasn't been fruitful", and try to address that.  Getting a LLM is not going to make you a more attractive candidate for articling jobs.

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20 hours ago, velvet said:

I also would like to teach, whether part-time or on a tenure track. 

ProfReader will be better positioned to comment but a couple of years ago the hiring situation for profs was way worse than trying to get an articling position.

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4 minutes ago, kurrika said:

ProfReader will be better positioned to comment but a couple of years ago the hiring situation for profs was way worse than trying to get an articling position.

Yes, the hiring situation for faculty is always much more difficult than it is for articling.  Academia is a very long road that sometimes doesn't pay off especially well.  That is, of course, for tenure track jobs.  It is reasonably easy to adjunct classes, but you will still have to article and practice before that as schools don't hire new grads with no experience.

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Some universities have an unwritten rule about "encouraging" private sector adjuncts to donate their salary back to the school as well (UBC does this).  I don't know how common this is.

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21 hours ago, velvet said:

Thanks for the responses.

I agree that my focus will need refining; my concern right now is, at a broad level, choosing the right school. I have a feeling that schools specialize in fields of study. For example, I know the graduate students at my location all have a common denominator that I am not interested in studying in detail.

The reason I would like to pursue an LLM is for a potential academic future and a competitive resume. Summer hiring so far hasn't been fruitful, and I am worried that the job opportunities in these practice areas will erode. I also would like to teach, whether part-time or on a tenure track. 

[emphasis added]

Caveat, I'm long removed from legal hiring or job-seeking considerations. ProfReader is the best resource this thread re academia, and I agree with MP but think it bears emphasizing.

How in the world does getting your LLM in some as-yet unspecified area make your resume more competitive for law firm hiring than someone who's summered and articled and been called before you get your LLM?

As for academia, not to be too much of a downer, but how realistic are your alternative goals to teach part-time or tenure track? You say you have a B to B+ average, and haven't found summer work, and are worried about articling. Assuming you do an LLM, how does that make you more hirable? How does it push you towards academia? Do you know how difficult academic research is? Do you plan to article and get called, if not, why would a law school (or college for teaching paralegals) want to hire you part-time? I did as mentioned a part-time professional LLM so my major research paper was about half the length of a thesis (still had to be original etc.), and many people who completed all the coursework never finished their major research paper and thus never got their degree. These are people who did well in law school and in the practice of law and still found even a major paper, not even so much as a thesis, extremely difficult. How self-motivated are you?

It doesn't sound like you want to do an LLM so much as you can't think what else to do. Well, as MP said figure out what will make you a better candidate for jobs and work on that. If you figure out something specific you actually want to do an LLM in, consider that, but it doesn't sound like a goal so much as a short-term escape from the job search.

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17 minutes ago, kurrika said:

Some universities have an unwritten rule about "encouraging" private sector adjuncts to donate their salary back to the school as well (UBC does this).  I don't know how common this is.

It isn't uncommon (but it also isn't uncommon for those in private practice to want to donate it back).  Some schools also pay a pittance.

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LLM probably need to select schools that if courses of L.S curriculum is able to offer particularly courses which conform to particularly to  your area of interest, which also mean they may also have teacher to supervise you on particular field. It also need to check it out their mandatory courses, whether  the school mandatory courses or  structured courses really conform or meet one's own need. If one is interested in civil, business or labor law, this particular llm is focused more on ocean or marine law or space law or elsewhere law , then one maybe need to think twice. Or the courses flexibility or whether it offer has wide range of courses selection to conform needs.

Tuition expense of the program 

School ranking at regions

 

One can -reshuffle , re-arrange order or priority according to one's own need.

(I agree with others that OP need to figure out why one need to study llm first , . OP need to figure out why you want to study this for a specific or some reasons, and then it's better to come up or identify area of interests )

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From what I can tell, there seem to be three "types" of people who get LLMs -

1) People who like thinking about the law more than they like practicing it. These people want to go into legal academia. They often go straight through to their LLM after their JD, then straight through again to their PhD, etc. If they are called to the bar, which many are not, they probably clerked at the SCC instead of doing traditional articling. These are the people who become tenure-track law professors.

2) People who are practicing lawyers, who want to gain additional expertise in some area and/or potentially work a side gig as an adjunct prof. These people are often experienced lawyers who have been called for a number of years and are looking to either push themselves even further in their line of work (ie a senior transactional lawyer who gets an LLM focussing on international taxation or trade & commerce) or to otherwise allow them to teach side courses at a law school on a more regular basis than a visiting practitioner / adjunct may be able to do.

3) People who are struggling to find articles at the end of 3L, who would rather do an LLM and try their hand at the articling recruit one more time than do the LPP.

If you're seriously considering doing this LLM, take a minute and think about which of these three categories you'd likely fall into. If you think you would fall under Category #3, remember that you're only midway through 2L, and there are number of potential articling positions still open and available to you. I think it's also worth noting that having an LLM with no work experience behind it doesn't make you a whole lot more marketable for articling or junior lawyer positions than you otherwise would be. 

Edited by beyondsection17
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