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s27

Should I withdraw my application? RE: cGPA

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Hey guys!

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I've graduated from York in Honors PoliSci this June, and am enrolled in writing the Dec2017 LSAT. I've already submitted my application for 5 Ontario law schools, being: Ottawa, Windsor, Queens, Western and Osgoode. 

This entire time I've calculated my cGPA on York's conversion chart, and I've gotten a 3.1. 

I just went on my Windsor student account to look at my application status and they calculated my GPA as a 2.89. I freaked out and googled it and I came across the OLSAS GPA calculator and it showed me everything, so basically my stats are:

Cumulative GPA (CGPA): 2.90
  Last two years (L2): 2.89
  Last three years (L3): 3.04
  Best two years (B2): 3.28
  Best three years (B3): 3.04

 

I've lurked these forums for a long time and literally haven't seen anybody get in anywhere with a 2.8.

Really strong ROF, PS and EC's. Worked two jobs, one was being a legal assistant for a Crim. Lawyer. I've included this all in my PS, I just don't know if it's good enough having that low of a GPA. I didn't apply access, and I'm not a mature student, but I did fill out the Part B section for Osgoode under diversity. 

I feel super emotional and discouraged right now and I don't know if I should even write the LSAT/not apply and figure something else out. How low are my chances/do I even stand a chance? 

Edited by s27
mistake

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You're past the LSAT refund date, and you're not able to refund your application fees either. There is literally no advantage to withdrawing your application other than saving your ego from the blow of receiving rejections. If you leave your application in, there is the chance that you perform well on the LSAT and get admitted. 

Unless I'm incorrect and you can get money back, I wouldn't withdraw. 

That said, your chances are very low. 

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How greatly would having the high LSAT score even affect my application at this point, with such a low GPA? 

I didn't even think about the money. There's a lot of family pressure behind this, to the point where I really don't want them to find out about 5 rejection letters. 

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How come there’s a discrepancy between the OLSAS calculated GPA and Windsor’s by point .2?

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2 minutes ago, wildcat23 said:

How come there’s a discrepancy between the OLSAS calculated GPA and Windsor’s by point .2?

Shit, sorry it's 2.89. So they took my last two years. 

I just went back to check, I read it incorrectly. I'll edit the post. 

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1 minute ago, s27 said:

Shit, sorry it's 2.89. So they took my last two years. 

I just went back to check, I read it incorrectly. I'll edit the post. 

Well, mistake me if I’m wrong, but last years cGPA median was 3.12 meaning 50% of the grades were below that and Median lsat was 155. If you score really well on the LSATS, you may have a shot! 

Study hard!

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5 minutes ago, s27 said:

How greatly would having the high LSAT score even affect my application at this point, with such a low GPA? 

I didn't even think about the money. There's a lot of family pressure behind this, to the point where I really don't want them to find out about 5 rejection letters. 

Well if there's family pressure, what would they say about you withdrawing your application and not even trying?

Also, if there's family pressure, do they know what your GPA is? Do they realize what kind of GPA you need to go to law school? If so, why are they pressuring you? If not, why not educate them?

Also we say it on here all the time but how do you know your ECs are "really strong?" Lots of people on here have "really strong" ECs and have worked for lawyers, etc. Lots of applicants have had two or more jobs. 

You have nothing to lose by writing the LSAT, but I would keep your expectations in check and maybe apply more broadly to schools that accept lower GPAs. I think Osgoode in particular is a stretch. Have you done a practice LSAT? How did you do? I would say that IF you can get in the 170s, you MAY have a chance at some schools, but almost none anywhere any lower than that. But be aware that a very small percentage of people get 170+ scores. Less than 3% of test-takers get 170 or higher, no matter how much studying and prepping they do. 

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Since Queen's (I believe) focuses on B2 you might have a shot if you score like a 170+ on the LSAT. Western is L2 though I think (please correct me if I'm wrong anyone). 

 

No point in withdrawing your application, as BQ said you have already paid everything and its too late to get refunds to you might as well try your best on the LSAT and hope that you will get in somewhere

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Just now, wildcat23 said:

Well, mistake me if I’m wrong, but last years cGPA median was 3.12 meaning 50% of the grades were below that and Median lsat was 155. If you score really well on the LSATS, you may have a shot! 

Study hard!

50% of people accepted to law schools in Canada have a median GPA lower than 3.12? I don't think so....

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Just now, providence said:

50% of people accepted to law schools in Canada have a median GPA lower than 3.12? I don't think so....

Sorry, I was talking about Windsor Law specifically 

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2 minutes ago, providence said:

Well if there's family pressure, what would they say about you withdrawing your application and not even trying?

Also, if there's family pressure, do they know what your GPA is? Do they realize what kind of GPA you need to go to law school? If so, why are they pressuring you? If not, why not educate them?

Also we say it on here all the time but how do you know your ECs are "really strong?" Lots of people on here have "really strong" ECs and have worked for lawyers, etc. Lots of applicants have had two or more jobs. 

You have nothing to lose by writing the LSAT, but I would keep your expectations in check and maybe apply more broadly to schools that accept lower GPAs. I think Osgoode in particular is a stretch. Have you done a practice LSAT? How did you do? I would say that IF you can get in the 170s, you MAY have a chance at some schools, but almost none anywhere any lower than that. But be aware that a very small percentage of people get 170+ scores. Less than 3% of test-takers get 170 or higher, no matter how much studying and prepping they do. 

A lot of good points. 

The family part of this is just a long, messy story. I applied because I've always wanted to be a criminal defence attorney, not because of family pressure in this field (just to clear that up). They don't know what my GPA is. I just texted my mom to tell her about the situation, it's hard to explain this stuff to them because they didn't go to school in Canada and they don't understand the process. She said it's just ".1 point", lol point proven. 

I know, you're right about the EC's. If you'd be interested/it's allowed, I could send you my application just to get a general idea. I know you're not a part of the admissions board, but I'm feeling really discouraged right now. 

On my last practice test I scored a 150. I'm in a prepcourse with HarvardReady right now, and I'm doing private tutoring with the instructor for LR because that's my weak point. I'll tell you right now that I don't think I'd get a 170, but I think a 165 would be doable. 

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14 minutes ago, providence said:

Well if there's family pressure, what would they say about you withdrawing your application and not even trying?

Also, if there's family pressure, do they know what your GPA is? Do they realize what kind of GPA you need to go to law school? If so, why are they pressuring you? If not, why not educate them?

Also we say it on here all the time but how do you know your ECs are "really strong?" Lots of people on here have "really strong" ECs and have worked for lawyers, etc. Lots of applicants have had two or more jobs. 

You have nothing to lose by writing the LSAT, but I would keep your expectations in check and maybe apply more broadly to schools that accept lower GPAs. I think Osgoode in particular is a stretch. Have you done a practice LSAT? How did you do? I would say that IF you can get in the 170s, you MAY have a chance at some schools, but almost none anywhere any lower than that. But be aware that a very small percentage of people get 170+ scores. Less than 3% of test-takers get 170 or higher, no matter how much studying and prepping they do. 

This girl who is articling at the firm I'm working at went to Bond University in Australia. She speaks very highly of it, but due to family reasons and just the general stigma of going to law school abroad, I wanted to avoid this option. Also I can't afford it. 

Essentially, the lawyer I'm with has "guaranteed" me an articling position upon graduation. I don't know if this changes anything. 

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18 minutes ago, wildcat23 said:

Well, mistake me if I’m wrong, but last years cGPA median was 3.12 meaning 50% of the grades were below that and Median lsat was 155. If you score really well on the LSATS, you may have a shot! 

Study hard!

Those stats are only for the dual program!

Don't withdraw- your stats will never change and it's better to take the chance. Really focus on that LSAT. 

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20 minutes ago, wildcat23 said:

Well, mistake me if I’m wrong, but last years cGPA median was 3.12 meaning 50% of the grades were below that and Median lsat was 155. If you score really well on the LSATS, you may have a shot! 

Study hard!

This is for the dual JD program which is: (1) not advisable, and (2) known to have much lower standards than the single JD program. 

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31 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

This is for the dual JD program which is: (1) not advisable, and (2) known to have much lower standards than the single JD program. 

It's also exceptionally expensive. It's only worth it if OP literally wants to go all-in on this law degree thing, regardless of all of the negative factors at play here, and is considering going to Australia as an alternative. In that case, sure, take the dual program, but in all other circumstances I would highly advise against it.

@OP: a 2.89/2.90 is very low (NB: that 0.01 difference probably came from the fact that my calculator rounds up and Windsor's probably just discards the third significant digit) and, even with a ver favourable LSAT score, is likely to significantly limit your options. Your L2 score is not better either, which is what schools like Western and Queen's tend to look at more than cGPA. Osgoode would be hard pressed to be convinced to admit you even if you made a really good case under Part B. I can't speak for Windsor, but it's possible you might have some wiggle room there with a really good LSAT (and I mean like, high 160s), but Windsor's a bit of a mystery so I think few people can give you a good idea of where you stand there.

Not that it's worth very much, but according to my predictor, you might have a chance at Western with a 167+ and your cGPA. Everything else is off the table it seems (except Windsor and Lakehead because those aren't part of the prediction model).

Sorry, OP. Wish I had better news. I wouldn't withdraw my application, though. You already paid the fees. Study for the LSAT as you would and take it. The worse that can happen is you just don't get admitted, and you don't want to be asking yourself what if I had gone through with it in several years.

If you don't succeed and end up getting rejected everywhere, there are cheaper options than going overseas for a law degree, though admittedly they're going to be more time consuming (e.g., work for several years until you qualify as a mature student; go back and get another degree).

With respect to your "guaranteed" job when you get back — unless you have something in writing and it's solid (seriously, if the lawyer puts it in writing, ask another lawyer to look it over), I would never use that as a justification to go to, say, Bond, for a law degree with the expectation that I will be gainfully employed after I get back. And even so, an articling position, while difficult to obtain for a lot of foreign-trained lawyers, is not the ultimate difficulty — it's landing a permanent position afterward. So unless I had a guarantee, in writing, that I would be hired as an articling student and a full-time lawyer afterward, I would never do it. And, let's be honest, no one in their right mind would give you that guarantee (maybe unless you were family) because it depends on so many fuzzy factors that it would just be a huge economic risk to do so. I mean, what if it turns out they literally can't afford to hire you? What if you're a terrible articling student and they don't want to hire you back? These are real things a firm will think about and because they're uncontrollable, I can't see a firm, no matter how much they trust you and want you now, give you that guarantee.

So my suggestion there would be: don't rely on that promise as anything more than a possibility. Never use it to make your ultimate decision to move forward with your plan.

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12 minutes ago, Ryn said:

It's also exceptionally expensive. It's only worth it if OP literally wants to go all-in on this law degree thing, regardless of all of the negative factors at play here, and is considering going to Australia as an alternative. In that case, sure, take the dual program, but in all other circumstances I would highly advise against it.

@OP: a 2.89/2.90 is very low (NB: that 0.01 difference probably came from the fact that my calculator rounds up and Windsor's probably just discards the third significant digit) and, even with a ver favourable LSAT score, is likely to significantly limit your options. Your L2 score is not better either, which is what schools like Western and Queen's tend to look at more than cGPA. Osgoode would be hard pressed to be convinced to admit you even if you made a really good case under Part B. I can't speak for Windsor, but it's possible you might have some wiggle room there with a really good LSAT (and I mean like, high 160s), but Windsor's a bit of a mystery so I think few people can give you a good idea of where you stand there.

Not that it's worth very much, but according to my predictor, you might have a chance at Western with a 167+ and your cGPA. Everything else is off the table it seems (except Windsor and Lakehead because those aren't part of the prediction model).

Sorry, OP. Wish I had better news. I wouldn't withdraw my application, though. You already paid the fees. Study for the LSAT as you would and take it. The worse that can happen is you just don't get admitted, and you don't want to be asking yourself what if I had gone through with it in several years.

If you don't succeed and end up getting rejected everywhere, there are cheaper options than going overseas for a law degree, though admittedly they're going to be more time consuming (e.g., work for several years until you qualify as a mature student; go back and get another degree).

With respect to your "guaranteed" job when you get back — unless you have something in writing and it's solid (seriously, if the lawyer puts it in writing, ask another lawyer to look it over), I would never use that as a justification to go to, say, Bond, for a law degree with the expectation that I will be gainfully employed after I get back. And even so, an articling position, while difficult to obtain for a lot of foreign-trained lawyers, is not the ultimate difficulty — it's landing a permanent position afterward. So unless I had a guarantee, in writing, that I would be hired as an articling student and a full-time lawyer afterward, I would never do it. And, let's be honest, no one in their right mind would give you that guarantee (maybe unless you were family) because it depends on so many fuzzy factors that it would just be a huge economic risk to do so. I mean, what if it turns out they literally can't afford to hire you? What if you're a terrible articling student and they don't want to hire you back? These are real things a firm will think about and because they're uncontrollable, I can't see a firm, no matter how much they trust you and want you now, give you that guarantee.

So my suggestion there would be: don't rely on that promise as anything more than a possibility. Never use it to make your ultimate decision to move forward with your plan.

Thanks so much for replying! 

I know, when he says he guarantee's it, I try not to let it get to my head. It hasn't been on paper. I don't know if that's just his way of being very nice. I've met a legal aid lawyer at one of the courthouses we frequently go to who said he completed his JD in the UK. He said how he's planning on starting his own firm come January, and told me if I'm interested in the UK to let him know. I don't know if this means anything either lol. 

I just went on the website you linked, and I saw the Minimum Accepted under Ottawa as being:

2.49 147 3.2

 

This is slightly getting me hopeful again. What do you think? 

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32 minutes ago, s27 said:

I just went on the website you linked, and I saw the Minimum Accepted under Ottawa as being:

2.49 147 3.2

 

This is slightly getting me hopeful again. What do you think? 

You should know a few things about those stats: for one, it doesn't mean that a person with a 2.49 cGPA and a 147 LSAT was accepted. It means that 2.49 was the lowest cGPA that was accepted and that a 147 was the lowest LSAT that was accepted. It's highly unlikely those two stats belong to the same person. But even if they did, bear in mind that law schools do accept outliers from time to time for various reasons. Such outliers should be effectively discarded from consideration because they are meaningless to the overall question, which is what would be the result of an ordinary applicant with x stats be?

Ottawa cares about cGPA more than any other school. I don't think the odds are very good, despite the fact that they appeared to have let in a 2.49 sometime within the last five years.

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Don't withdraw your application and ignore the numbers posted on the link, as they're taken from self reports here. 2.89 GPA won't get you into Ottawa, but you may have a shot at Western, if you score high on the LSAT, and you may have a shot at Windsor's dual Canadian-American JD program, even with a LSAT of 160. Yes, the dual program at Windsor is outrageously expensive, but if you work hard in 1L, you can transfer to another law school for 2L  Getting into any Canadian law school at this point should be your goal.

Forget your GPA, you can't change it, and get all of the noise out of your head. Put all of your energy into studying for the LSAT. Write full LSAT tests every time, including the extra section. You need to build up your endurance. Go thorough each test after you've marked it and find out where you went wrong. Personally I found Powerscore's LSAT Bible helpful and 7sage's free videos on youtube to be very helpful; however I have been told there is a new interactive LSAT service from Magoosh. I've never used Magoosh, so I cannot comment. I wrote the LSAT a few years ago and I wrote 3 or 4 practice tests every week. Hope this helps, best of luck

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6 minutes ago, JohnP said:

Don't withdraw your application and ignore the numbers posted on the link, as they're taken from self reports here. 2.89 GPA won't get you into Ottawa, but you may have a shot at Western, if you score high on the LSAT, and you may have a shot at Windsor's dual Canadian-American JD program, even with a LSAT of 160. Yes, the dual program at Windsor is outrageously expensive, but if you work hard in 1L, you can transfer to another law school for 2L  Getting into any Canadian law school at this point should be your goal.

Forget your GPA, you can't change it, and get all of the noise out of your head. Put all of your energy into studying for the LSAT. Write full LSAT tests every time, including the extra section. You need to build up your endurance. Go thorough each test after you've marked it and find out where you went wrong. Personally I found Powerscore's LSAT Bible helpful and 7sage's free videos on youtube to be very helpful; however I have been told there is a new interactive LSAT service from Magoosh. I've never used Magoosh, so I cannot comment. I wrote the LSAT a few years ago and I wrote 3 or 4 practice tests every week. Hope this helps, best of luck

His L2 is a 2.89, I don't think he has a realistic shot Ottawa or Western.

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14 minutes ago, Draken said:

His L2 is a 2.89, I don't think he has a realistic shot Ottawa or Western.

I'm willing to take anything I can get at this point, including the dual program at Windsor. 

PS it's her*:-D

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