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GPA 3.61, B2 3.7, LSAT 174 Chances (especially at UofT)

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2 minutes ago, BillyBishop said:

See, this is misguided too. The "TLS" prestige debate is about someone who says ... "I got into Michigan with a full ride but I'm gonna go to Harvard at sticker because its Harvard" ... this is a poor strategy. Why? Because within the T13 your chances of big law are high enough that the marginal increase in prestige can't justify the increased cost. 

I'm not saying go to HYS (or the T13/14) because you can brag about it at cocktail parties... I'm saying go because the statistical likelihood of landing big law from these schools is far greater than anything that exists in Canada. Furthermore, with American big law, other opportunities open up further into your career as @livinginamerica noted. 

[1]In Canada, at U of T/Osgoode you have what, like a 15-25% chance of big law?

[2]Then once you've got your summer articling position you have like a 60-100% chance of getting hired as an articling student (at like 70-90k)
Then once you're an articling student you have a 80-100% chance of getting hired as an associate (100-120k).

In the States, you have at least a 50-60% chance of big law (though in reality its much higher, anyone who wants it basically gets it in my anecdotal experience).
Then once you're hired as a summer you have like a 95-100% chance of getting hired. Then you're done and making 180k. 
If you want to go back to Canada you can once the LSUC feels you've practiced long enough in a competant jurisdiction (3-5 years) no articling. 

These are the way things are. [3]Give the kid the facts and let him decide. 

 

First bolded: This is not accurate.

Second bolded: Similarly not accurate. Also, what the hell kind of range is "60-100%"? "Somewhere between a coin flip and loaded dice" is not a useful metric. 

Third bolded: Well if you were providing facts that would be great. Unfortunately, you're not.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, BillyBishop said:

See, this is misguided too. The "TLS" prestige debate is about someone who says ... "I got into Michigan with a full ride but I'm gonna go to Harvard at sticker because its Harvard" ... this is a poor strategy. Why? Because within the T13 your chances of big law are high enough that the marginal increase in prestige can't justify the increased cost. 

I'm not saying go to HYS (or the T13/14) because you can brag about it at cocktail parties... I'm saying go because the statistical likelihood of landing big law from these schools is far greater than anything that exists in Canada. Furthermore, with American big law, other opportunities open up further into your career as @livinginamerica noted. 

In Canada, at U of T/Osgoode you have what, like a 15-25% chance of big law?
Then once you've got your summer articling position you have like a 60-100% chance of getting hired as an articling student (at like 70-90k). 
Then once you're an articling student you have a 80-100% chance of getting hired as an associate (100-120k).

In the States, you have at least a 50-60% chance of big law (though in reality its much higher, anyone who wants it basically gets it in my anecdotal experience).
Then once you're hired as a summer you have like a 95-100% chance of getting hired. Then you're done and making 180k. 
If you want to go back to Canada you can once the LSUC feels you've practiced long enough in a competant jurisdiction (3-5 years) no articling. 

These are the way things are. Give the kid the facts and let him decide. 

UofT is more like 50-60% BigLaw based on the Ultra Vires stats (as a UofT student I can confirm) so if you classify 50-60% chance from a U.S school as guaranteed then I would assume you would do the same for UofT. 

For the record, I actually agree with you, if I had those stats I would've gone to a U.S school in a heartbeat (when the debate is UofT at sticker or a lower T14 at sticker then I think the debate is much more granular, since the higher earnings are partially offset by the increased costs, especially if you get financial aid from UofT) . But you can't make the argument that you're trying to give someone the facts and let them decide when your first reply was "please go to the states" without even acknowledging what the OP's career goals are or where they want to practice. A T14 will give you a very rewarding career in Canada if you work U.S biglaw and come back but if you go JUST to come back it is still a poor investment.       

 

Edited by TheLawStudent
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1 hour ago, BillyBishop said:

Because I'm at a top american law school and have a NYC biglaw job. I understand your confusion, there's been some mishaps with the use of my account. I've already gotten a msg from the moderators about it so I should clarify: Canadian, T14 school, NYC biglaw 

You are a Canadian. What type of Visa do you hold and how long can you work in USA?

 

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I have an F-1 visa. I show the boarder guy my I-20 form which shows my F-1 status. I can work for 12 months if the work is related to studying law (optional practical training).

Fair enough?

 

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@Billy Bishop considering that this is a anonymous board, and that either: (1) you and you friend(s) are using this with real profiles, but it's impossible to tell who is posting and when; (2) you made up one or more of the profiles (i.e. you are a fourth year m&a associate that went to a lower ranked Canadian school, a university student that can't get into a Canadian law school and now wants to go to the UK, or a current T13 student with an NYC big law job, but obviously not all of them, and possible none of these); or (3) it was some combo of you and your friends posting real profiles and fake profiles - why would anyone put any stock into what comes from this account?

Everyone here is anonymous, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt, but when an account is demonstrably unreliable, I think the account should just be shut down.

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2 hours ago, BillyBishop said:

See, this is misguided too. The "TLS" prestige debate is about someone who says ... "I got into Michigan with a full ride but I'm gonna go to Harvard at sticker because its Harvard" ... this is a poor strategy. Why? Because within the T13 your chances of big law are high enough that the marginal increase in prestige can't justify the increased cost. 

I'm not saying go to HYS (or the T13/14) because you can brag about it at cocktail parties... I'm saying go because the statistical likelihood of landing big law from these schools is far greater than anything that exists in Canada. Furthermore, with American big law, other opportunities open up further into your career as @livinginamerica noted. 

In Canada, at U of T/Osgoode you have what, like a 15-25% chance of big law?
Then once you've got your summer articling position you have like a 60-100% chance of getting hired as an articling student (at like 70-90k). 
Then once you're an articling student you have a 80-100% chance of getting hired as an associate (100-120k).

In the States, you have at least a 50-60% chance of big law (though in reality its much higher, anyone who wants it basically gets it in my anecdotal experience).
Then once you're hired as a summer you have like a 95-100% chance of getting hired. Then you're done and making 180k. 
If you want to go back to Canada you can once the LSUC feels you've practiced long enough in a competant jurisdiction (3-5 years) no articling. 

These are the way things are. Give the kid the facts and let him decide. 

Also your comment that prestige should not matter within T14 schools still does not explain why 50% of posters on TLS told the OP to go to UofT over H (there was a similar post on lawstudents and it was about 50/50 as well), which kind of defeats your comment that lawstudents is the only forum that pushes people to go to Canadian schools. 

 

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4 hours ago, conge said:

@Billy Bishop considering that this is a anonymous board, and that either: (1) you and you friend(s) are using this with real profiles, but it's impossible to tell who is posting and when; (2) you made up one or more of the profiles (i.e. you are a fourth year m&a associate that went to a lower ranked Canadian school, a university student that can't get into a Canadian law school and now wants to go to the UK, or a current T13 student with an NYC big law job, but obviously not all of them, and possible none of these); or (3) it was some combo of you and your friends posting real profiles and fake profiles - why would anyone put any stock into what comes from this account?

Everyone here is anonymous, so everything should be taken with a grain of salt, but when an account is demonstrably unreliable, I think the account should just be shut down.

I agree with the general idea of banning people that are unreliable, but I disagree with the idea of shutting down the account and allowing that person to stick around under a new name with whatever identity they've settled on. I think people like this should either wear the brand of being an outed liar on the site or banned altogether. 

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2 hours ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

I agree with the general idea of banning people that are unreliable, but I disagree with the idea of shutting down the account and allowing that person to stick around under a new name with whatever identity they've settled on. I think people like this should either wear the brand of being an outed liar on the site or banned altogether. 

On second thought, anyone can just start an account with a new email address, right? I'm not sure it would help to shut down an account that is known to be...inconsistent. I mean at least it's a known quantity.

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This whole debate is exhausting at this point, but I figure it’s worth pointing out: A lot of U of T students do go to New York. Well over 10% of the class, this year. Interest is relatively high among the students, and the success rate is correspondingly low—but it’s absolutely possible to get the same miserable NY big law job out of U of T as anyone in the Top 14, if you are a strong student.

(It’s also worth factoring in the missing New York cohort when considering UV’s Bay Street numbers.)

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Mods please delete this account so I can make a new one



Accounts cannot be deleted. One account per member is the rule. Do not set up an additional account.

Believe it or not, the mods know what they're doing.

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On 10/6/2017 at 6:49 AM, erinl2 said:



Accounts cannot be deleted. One account per member is the rule. Do not set up an additional account.

Believe it or not, the mods know what they're doing.

ok

Edited by BillyBishop

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Prestige: I found that the HYS community class looks favourably on both UofT and McGill. They did, however, often wonder why Canada's average LSAT scores are so low. Again, the US is very US-centric, so most academics would say Cornell is much better than UofT, when in fact, Toronto tends to consistently perform better in world rankings. 

Market and Pay: Many agree that the Canadian market is a healthier one. Most graduates can make a decent living. The US market is more limited, but the payoff is great if you're from the right pedigree and there is no cap on your earnings ($400k, $500k can be achieved). The avg age for a JD at Harvard is ~27, so when you think about it, the 185k at 30 post graduation isn't that great. A typical Toronto grad will make 110k start on Bay Street w 20k bonus per year at ~26 post-graduation. By 30 years of age, 150/170k isn't out of the ordinary. Again, these are only looking at the well-paying jobs. 

Immigration: It's been a tricky market lately for Canadian visa-goers. Though employers will take you following graduation through a TN via NAFTA, you will likely find yourself in a sticky situation if you're looking for an employer sponsored H1B or sponsored PR. But as the old adage goes, study where you want to work. 

Edited by cheesypete
typos

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