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2017 Associate Salary Bump (Toronto)

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1 hour ago, Uriel said:

Two more as-yet-unreported firms reportedly deliberating over an increase.

Hope momentum propels these changes across the board. 

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25 minutes ago, onepost said:

This seems like bait, but I'll bite. For the vast majority of people who want to practice law, Canada is the only option. Even then, lots (most?) people would rather article than drop everything to become a New Yorker.

But, more constructively, if any part of the first-year raise is because Bay Street is feeling pressure from New York, Toronto firms should also revisit their hire-back policies. I suspect a big draw for indebted risk-averse law students is New York's near-100% offer rate. It is crazy to ask students to roll the dice twice: first to get an articling position, and then again to get hired on. (New York's perceived relative friendliness towards clerking also seems very popular.) Not original observations, I know.

Anyway, glad to see this is happening.

Excellent point. What would you say is an average, Toronto big-law summer hire-back rate? I was pretty shocked to find that some firms have like 30-40% hire back rates (I know its firm dependent, but what is typical, if 95-100% is typical in NYC). What is the plan for the near-half of summer students who don't get hired back? 

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5 minutes ago, BillyBishop said:

Excellent point. What would you say is an average, Toronto big-law summer hire-back rate? I was pretty shocked to find that some firms have like 30-40% hire back rates (I know its firm dependent, but what is typical, if 95-100% is typical in NYC). What is the plan for the near-half of summer students who don't get hired back? 

Summer to Articling hireback is close to 100% for big firms. Articling to Associate hireback is 82%. 

http://precedentjd.com/hireback-watch/toronto-wide-hireback-numbers/

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8 minutes ago, BillyBishop said:

What would you say is an average, Toronto big-law summer hire-back rate? 

There's a whole magazine (only half joking) dedicated to publishing these numbers

Edited by onepost

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I'm confused, Articling -> associate hireback is not 100%?

So some article for a year and then are not offered a job? What options do people have then? 

I guess prospective students really ensure they accept an articling position with one of the 100% firms

Edited by BillyBishop

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10 minutes ago, BillyBishop said:

I'm confused, Articling -> associate hireback is not 100%?

So some article for a year and then are not offered a job? What options do people have then? 

I guess prospective students really ensure they accept an articling position with one of the 100% firms

This is off-topic for this thread - but for sure, hireback should play a big part in students' decisions

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2 minutes ago, OzStudent said:

This is off-topic for this thread - but for sure, hireback should play a big part in students' decisions

Sry I'm new to the site and on a friend's account.

When do you guys think salaries will increase back to pre-recession levels? (Like 160 starting, or 180 like in the US)

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I've heard about Stikeman, BLG, Norton Rose and Osler. The assumption is that the others will follow.

I've mostly heard that these are not fixed increases, but variable such that top performers will make more, but average performers may see little or no increase.

With respect to source, associates from those firms  and from competiting firms.

Edited by SlightlyObsessed
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1 hour ago, BillyBishop said:

I'm confused, Articling -> associate hireback is not 100%?

So some article for a year and then are not offered a job? What options do people have then? 

I guess prospective students really ensure they accept an articling position with one of the 100% firms

There are very few 100% firms.  And even then, some hire back with little intent to see that associate proceed to partnership.  You can see the rates here: http://precedentjd.com/hireback-watch/bay-street-hireback-ranking/

1 hour ago, BillyBishop said:

Sry I'm new to the site and on a friend's account.

When do you guys think salaries will increase back to pre-recession levels? (Like 160 starting, or 180 like in the US)

That was not the pre-recession level.  In 2006 associate salaries started at $95k.  That's much less than you'll get in NY, obviously, but your odds of making partner here are much higher, and you're expected to work a full month less in Toronto than you are in the white shoe firms.

41 minutes ago, SlightlyObsessed said:

I've heard about Stikeman, BLG, Norton Rose and Osler. The assumption is that the others will follow.

I've mostly heard that these are not fixed increases, but variable such that top performers will make more, but average performers may see little or no increase.

With respect to source, associates from those firms  and from competiting firms.

Others are following, at least in terms of the early-year lockstep increase.  

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1 hour ago, Uriel said:

There are very few 100% firms.  And even then, some hire back with little intent to see that associate proceed to partnership.  You can see the rates here: http://precedentjd.com/hireback-watch/bay-street-hireback-ranking/

That was not the pre-recession level.  In 2006 associate salaries started at $95k.  That's much less than you'll get in NY, obviously, but your odds of making partner here are much higher, and you're expected to work a full month less in Toronto than you are in the white shoe firms.

Others are following, at least in terms of the early-year lockstep increase.  


What explains the major discrepancies between hireback ratios year over year? For example, Bennett Jones drops from 90% down to 67% the next year. Is that a factor of firm business needs or a factor of some not so great students? A little of both? 

Edited by whoknows

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3 hours ago, BillyBishop said:

I'm confused, Articling -> associate hireback is not 100%?

No, for all his faults, Justin Trudeau has not yet imposed a Stalin-esque 100% employment quota.  

Edited by utmguy

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What explains the major discrepancies between hireback ratios year over year? For example, Bennett Jones jumps from 90% down to 67% the next year. Is that a factor of firm business needs or a factor of some not so great students? A little of both? 

Any number of things.  Students not working out; partners that could have supported the new students leaving the firm; financial hardship; knock-on effects from overhiring in the previous year or anticipating a larger hire in the upcoming year; market downturn; etc., etc.

Don't be too drawn in by the percentages, either.  If BJ only has 18 students, then let's say they took 16 of 18 the previous year.  But now they're finding there are a few too many idle first-year associates, so they cap the hireback at 15.  And then it turns out that they actually have four students that aren't performing (one only worked a 30-hour week, two turn in terrible assignments, and a fourth said a lot of offensive things around the office), and there was also a fifth that only wanted to be hired back into the IP group and that group is overstaffed as it is.  So now they're on the lookout to hire a first or second year tax associate to get up to the 15 they wanted.

Just like that: 89% to 72%.

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'Hire back' isn't really what matters, either. What students should care about is the post-articiling offer rate. (We could also get into 'cold offers' etc., but this all seems somewhat off topic.)

EDIT: Maybe the hire back rate as reported by Precedent is the offer rate. A little unclear to me. Will stop now. 

Edited by onepost

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7 minutes ago, Uriel said:

Any number of things.  Students not working out; partners that could have supported the new students leaving the firm; financial hardship; knock-on effects from overhiring in the previous year or anticipating a larger hire in the upcoming year; market downturn; etc., etc.

Don't be too drawn in by the percentages, either.  If BJ only has 18 students, then let's say they took 16 of 18 the previous year.  But now they're finding there are a few too many idle first-year associates, so they cap the hireback at 15.  And then it turns out that they actually have four students that aren't performing (one only worked a 30-hour week, two turn in terrible assignments, and a fourth said a lot of offensive things around the office), and there was also a fifth that only wanted to be hired back into the IP group and that group is overstaffed as it is.  So now they're on the lookout to hire a first or second year tax associate to get up to the 15 they wanted.

Just like that: 89% to 72%.

Uriel out here slanging truth. 

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Another as-yet-unreported firm announced raises yesterday, and a few others are expected to follow suit within the few days. 

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20 hours ago, Uriel said:

That's much less than you'll get in NY, obviously, but your odds of making partner here are much higher, and you're expected to work a full month less in Toronto than you are in the white shoe firms.

So only 14 months a year? :P

 

(Got eem!!)

Edited by Lawl
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Posted (edited)

... New York scale? As far as I know, no Canadian firm, including international firms in canada, pay their Canadian associates on a new York scale (ie 180 for first years).

Edited by SlightlyObsessed

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Posted (edited)

At least some of the American Firms in Toronto at least start on the Cravath Scale as per NALP. http://www.nalpcanada.com/employer_profile?FormID=2914&QuestionTabID=46&SearchCondJSON={"SearchEmployerName"%3A"paul"} 

As much as I would love to see Toronto to 180, I would highly doubt bay street firms would be nearly doubling their first year associate salaries. 

Any further word on the bay street pay bump btw?

Edited by SlickWilly

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