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dtor3

University of Toronto admissions

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Hi,

I am new around here, and I am little confused. I am browsing "academic requirements" at UofT Law, and I can see that the GPA numbers are 84,86 and 88.

Namely, 25% of students accepted had an undergrad GPA of less than 84 percent. 50% of students had an undergrad GPA of less than 86 percent. And 75% of students had a GPA of less than 88 percent. 

So these are "percentile" GPAs and not letter grade GPAs.

Now, luckily I am a UofT student, and I do get percentile marks, but still I am confused as to how UofT computes above GPAs. 

a. i.e. I was just wondering how does UofT compute percentile mark GPAs for students that, say, come from York. Or better said, how does this statistic come into play with OLSAS CGPA calculations .

b. So. I am student at UofT. If I have in one class an 82% (A-) and in another class a 98% (A+). Both grades weigh the same. Does that mean that:

       - for UofT purposes (see above GPAs published by UofT law as academic requirements), my average will be (82+98)/2 = 90% ---- therefore 4.0;a nd

       - for other law schools, my CGPA will be (3.7 + 4.0)/2 -------therefore 3.85

Am I right, or am I missing something?

Thanks,

D.T.

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Percentiles are different than percentages. Here's an explanation.

U of T uses OLSAS GPA to determine your application. All schools have a conversion to this scale (you can access a converter here). I wouldn't use actual percentages to figure out my chances. 

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Thank you Ryn!

What you are saying makes sense.

What throws me completely off, is this: why does UofT law post GPA in percentages on their Admission Policies. Standards for Admission 2016-2017 page? Why don't they post the  academic requirements using OLSAS GPA (which is out of 4.0)? Anybody knows the answer to this?

Thanks!

D.T.

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I can't say for certain but it's possible they do it because percentages are more immediately understandable to people than the OLSAS scale.

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Yep, just to be certain, I probably will pay them a visit (admissions office).

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You haven't even started undergrad yet, right?

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1 hour ago, Eeee said:

You haven't even started undergrad yet, right?

Finished first year UofT, Saint George campus.

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8 hours ago, dtor3 said:

Thank you Ryn!

What you are saying makes sense.

What throws me completely off, is this: why does UofT law post GPA in percentages on their Admission Policies. Standards for Admission 2016-2017 page? Why don't they post the  academic requirements using OLSAS GPA (which is out of 4.0)? Anybody knows the answer to this?

Thanks!

D.T.

I'm pretty sure that OLSAS provides a GPA out of 4 to you the student, and then internally converts that to a percentage grade and gives that to the schools. The reason why I think this is because I called western to ask a question about something when I was applying, and in the course of the conversation they told me they had a percentage of 8X% for me from OLSAS. My school was on letter grades out of 4, so they didn't get this from my undergrad institution. 

I think that 86 correlates to a 3.9 or so, the 84 is probably a 3.75 I guess? And the 88 is probably a 3.95 or so? These are just guesses based on what I was told. 

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1 minute ago, DenningsSkiTrip said:

I'm pretty sure that OLSAS provides a GPA out of 4 to you the student, and then internally converts that to a percentage grade and gives that to the schools. The reason why I think this is because I called western to ask a question about something when I was applying, and in the course of the conversation they told me they had a percentage of 8X% for me from OLSAS. My school was on letter grades out of 4, so they didn't get this from my undergrad institution. 

I think that 86 correlates to a 3.9 or so, the 84 is probably a 3.75 I guess? And the 88 is probably a 3.95 or so? These are just guesses based on what I was told. 

I will most definitely pay admissions a visit. While this is all nice and dandy, I cannot afford to second guess the system :)

Thanks a bunch for your help!

D.T.

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4 hours ago, dtor3 said:

Yep, just to be certain, I probably will pay them a visit (admissions office).

I wouldn't at this point, they're busy and who knows if you'll even want to be a lawyer in 4 years. Just work hard and enjoy undergrad. Should you still want to be a lawyer when you're done undergrad you can ask all your questions then. 

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Just now, DenningsSkiTrip said:

I wouldn't at this point, they're busy and who knows if you'll even want to be a lawyer in 4 years. Just work hard and enjoy undergrad. Should you still want to be a lawyer when you're done undergrad you can ask all your questions then. 

Oh, ok :)

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, DenningsSkiTrip said:

I wouldn't at this point, they're busy and who knows if you'll even want to be a lawyer in 4 years. Just work hard and enjoy undergrad. Should you still want to be a lawyer when you're done undergrad you can ask all your questions then. 

I'm sure they can spare a second to explain their admissions statistics to someone who is clearly very serious about their future. In fact, they encourage applicants to do so on their website. They have hired people whose very job description is in part to help clarify things for applicants and students. I don't see what's wrong with a second year undergrad looking to have a good idea of what numbers he/she needs to be admitted to their top choice law school. 

 

Dtor3 if it's any use, I still don't understand what the percentages on UofT Law's website correspond to and I was admitted this cycle. Keep getting above 80 %(3.7 GPA) in your courses and you will be competitive for UofT, assuming you ace the LSAT.  But if you still are confused, and want clarification, contact them. That's what they have a phone number and email for. Goodluck. You seem to be on the right path already

Edited by AnimeAndSports

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I don't really disagree that students and would-be applicants can pester admissions offices if they wish. Though I'd caution anyone against talking about how they are serious about their future, because I always think "what, as compared to everyone else who has settled into being a loser for life?" It's important to think about messaging like that. As in, prove you're special first, and only act like you're special later - or better yet, never. 

Anyway, that said, when it comes to specific admissions criteria, percentages, etc, I have the same essential advice. Get over it. Stop thinking about it. What good could this information, in any possible form, ever do for you?

No matter what you think you "need" to get into U of T law school, what you actually need to do is your best. Is it going to help you to hear that you need to do better than your best? Or, by contrast, if you have the idea that you're doing good enough, will you stop doing your best and settle for less?

Obsessing over what you need to achieve your goals can easily become an excuse to not do the work. Stop calculating your optimum calorie intake, stop studying diets and subscribing to exercise magazines. Eat less and get some fucking exercise. Similarly, spend your time studying for your classes, rather than working to decode law school admissions. When it comes time to apply, if you even get that far, they'll consider your application however they consider applications. Understanding it better won't give you an edge. And it sure as hell can't help you now. 

Good luck. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Diplock said:

I don't really disagree that students and would-be applicants can pester admissions offices if they wish. Though I'd caution anyone against talking about how they are serious about their future, because I always think "what, as compared to everyone else who has settled into being a loser for life?" It's important to think about messaging like that. As in, prove you're special first, and only act like you're special later - or better yet, never. 

Anyway, that said, when it comes to specific admissions criteria, percentages, etc, I have the same essential advice. Get over it. Stop thinking about it. What good could this information, in any possible form, ever do for you?

No matter what you think you "need" to get into U of T law school, what you actually need to do is your best. Is it going to help you to hear that you need to do better than your best? Or, by contrast, if you have the idea that you're doing good enough, will you stop doing your best and settle for less?

Obsessing over what you need to achieve your goals can easily become an excuse to not do the work. Stop calculating your optimum calorie intake, stop studying diets and subscribing to exercise magazines. Eat less and get some fucking exercise. Similarly, spend your time studying for your classes, rather than working to decode law school admissions. When it comes time to apply, if you even get that far, they'll consider your application however they consider applications. Understanding it better won't give you an edge. And it sure as hell can't help you now. 

Good luck. 

I've never had someone advise me it's better to work hard blind and directionless, than work towards a defined goal. Also I think it's a stretch to assume that OP is suddenly going to obsess, if they aren't already, after they find out what UofT's admission criteria are. I can't believe this is even a debate - since when did determining what it takes to achieve something (much less a major life objective...), become frowned upon? 

Also your failed attempt to paint me as some sort of elitist reeks of you grasping at straws to side with your fellow frequent  poster on here. Nothing elitist with me saying it looks like OP is serious about their future- if anything, the discussion  here was spurred because you think dtor3 is excessively serious (you say obsessive I say serious) about their future. I also never said that looking into what numbers law schools admit 2-3 years before applying is the only way to demonstrate you're serious about your future. You have a laughable habit of pontificating from an unearned place of moral superiority, Diplock. You have to prove you're special first, and only act like you're special later - or better yet, never. 

Your analogy doesn't correlate to what I said. It's closer to OP having a defined fitness goal, such as completing a marathon, and asking Paula Radcliffe what it takes to do so. You're advising OP to willingly forego that information, and instead just work hard blindly(which could easily mean doing 1000 pushups a day - not useful for a marathon but still classified as working hard) until the day of the marathon THEN figure out what it takes to complete one. When you had 3 years to determine that.

 

 

Edited by AnimeAndSports
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1 hour ago, Diplock said:

I don't really disagree that students and would-be applicants can pester admissions offices if they wish. Though I'd caution anyone against talking about how they are serious about their future, because I always think "what, as compared to everyone else who has settled into being a loser for life?" It's important to think about messaging like that. As in, prove you're special first, and only act like you're special later - or better yet, never. 

Anyway, that said, when it comes to specific admissions criteria, percentages, etc, I have the same essential advice. Get over it. Stop thinking about it. What good could this information, in any possible form, ever do for you?

No matter what you think you "need" to get into U of T law school, what you actually need to do is your best. Is it going to help you to hear that you need to do better than your best? Or, by contrast, if you have the idea that you're doing good enough, will you stop doing your best and settle for less?

Obsessing over what you need to achieve your goals can easily become an excuse to not do the work. Stop calculating your optimum calorie intake, stop studying diets and subscribing to exercise magazines. Eat less and get some fucking exercise. Similarly, spend your time studying for your classes, rather than working to decode law school admissions. When it comes time to apply, if you even get that far, they'll consider your application however they consider applications. Understanding it better won't give you an edge. And it sure as hell can't help you now. 

Good luck. 

I never comment on U of T threads - and, to be honest, I only clicked on this one accidentally - but I do think there's some use to at least knowing admissions standards/criteria early on. Say OP works really hard and does his/her best, but that just isn't up to par for admissions - wouldn't it be better for OP to know that earlier on, and spend time considering other options, than to just continue on thinking law school is in the cards and get blindsided later once undergrad is already done? Sure, OP's specific questions are a bit extreme at this stage, but in a more general sense, I'd think it's beneficial to get enough information to know where you stand in a general sense (i.e. competitive vs. not competitive).

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@AnimeAndSports - Without being ridiculous about it on either side, I think what we're really talking about is the specificity of goals. Goals are good. And going to law school, for example, is a specific enough and a motivating goal. But we can also agree that goals can be too specific and/or premature in context, right? There was a memorable post here once from an undergrad asking how to become a judge. We can all agree that seeking a roadmap between undergrad and the Bench is premature and ridiculous, right? So what's left is finding a reasonable mid-point between motivation and masturbation. 

For me, it's enough to know you want grades consistently in the A-range, or close, in order to aim for law school. Is specific information about what you want to attend U of T so much more critical beyond that? Is it U of T Law or nothing, now? And how much can the difference in calculation matter, divorced from context including LSAT and other factors?

So, yeah. A goal is good. But law school is the goal. Worrying about how one school calculates your GPA isn't of practical help, beyond that. It's just a distraction. 

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I agree with your last post with the exception that "law school is the goal". Whether merited or not, OP has set UofT as their goal, not just law school generally. And finding out what grades you need for UofT is akin to finding out you need to write the LSAT for admissions to most North American law schools. Finding out, with few exceptions, that a certain grade threshold has to be met for admission into UofT is not excessive. It's certainly possible to do without, but if it gives OP peace of mind to determine exactly what they need, so be it. I don't think they should be shamed into not asking, as was the general vibe from DenningsSkiTrip post (You're not a law student at Uoft yet, and they're busy right now, therefore your inquiry is unnecessary pestering). 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AnimeAndSports said:

I agree with your last post with the exception that "law school is the goal". Whether merited or not, OP has set UofT as their goal, not just law school generally. And finding out what grades you need for UofT is akin to finding out you need to write the LSAT for admissions to most North American law schools. Finding out, with few exceptions, that a certain grade threshold has to be met for admission into UofT is not excessive. It's certainly possible to do without, but if it gives OP peace of mind to determine exactly what they need, so be it. I don't think they should be shamed into not asking, as was the general vibe from DenningsSkiTrip post (You're not a law student at Uoft yet, and they're busy right now, therefore your inquiry is unnecessary pestering). 

The grades and LSAT required to attend U of T law are readily available on the internet. The variations from different grading systems are all readily available as well. Guess what people at places like admissions offices hate? When they get inundated with phone calls asking questions that can be answered through a simple google search. 

Finally, putting me on blast for what you interpret (all by yourself) to be the "general vibe" of my post is a pretty douchebag move. Do you actually think I'm getting anything out of posting on here as a third year law student? I'm here to share some knowledge and help people out as they work through the process, as others helped me. 

So save me the preaching. Your interpretation of my posts isn't that insightful or interesting. 

Edited by DenningsSkiTrip
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2 hours ago, DenningsSkiTrip said:

The grades and LSAT required to attend U of T law are readily available on the internet. The variations from different grading systems are all readily available as well. Guess what people at places like admissions offices hate? When they get inundated with phone calls asking questions that can be answered through a simple google search. 

I am looking at UofT  law school admission website and they are talking 84% and 86% and 88% GPA admission criteria. What do those numbers mean? They are certainly not OLSAS GPA number calculations. If anything, they are highly weird. 

Perhaps I missed it, but where is the specific course load specified? I am looking at UofT Med School requirements - those are clear :) Honestly, law school criteria are not as clearly flashed out.

D.T.

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10 hours ago, AnimeAndSports said:

I'm sure they can spare a second to explain their admissions statistics to someone who is clearly very serious about their future. In fact, they encourage applicants to do so on their website. They have hired people whose very job description is in part to help clarify things for applicants and students. I don't see what's wrong with a second year undergrad looking to have a good idea of what numbers he/she needs to be admitted to their top choice law school. 

 

Dtor3 if it's any use, I still don't understand what the percentages on UofT Law's website correspond to and I was admitted this cycle. Keep getting above 80 %(3.7 GPA) in your courses and you will be competitive for UofT, assuming you ace the LSAT.  But if you still are confused, and want clarification, contact them. That's what they have a phone number and email for. Goodluck. You seem to be on the right path already

Thank you very much!!!

I have a 3.91 average for the first year (OLSAS wise). 89.7% average otherwise. Saint George campus.

D.T.

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