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What kind of hours do summer students work? [and general advice about summers]

78 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Thanks for the great post Uriel! 

I have a question for those more "in the know" than I: is 1L hiring increasing in Toronto again? I was under the impression most firms had cut back on 1L hiring back during the financial crisis, and that still hadn't recovered. Have I been reading bad sources, or working off outdated information? 

 

Hard to say across the board but I'm getting a very strong buzz from a number of different firms.  Expect hireback to be high.  We're all on fire over here.  I'd be very surprised if 1L hiring didn't at least maintain in place over last year.

That being said, I issue my usual warning against the certainty of damaging your 1L grades versus the extreme uncertainty of an attempt to secure a virtually mythical 1L summer job.  I didn't apply for them when there were only four available in the City of Toronto, and I still wouldn't today unless I had really desirable work experience, specialist credentials, or stratospheric fall grades.  It's such a huge amount of work and distraction at such a competitive time for such a low-probability shot.

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Posted (edited)

Lots of time on your hands... You must have just settled something that was scheduled for trial on Monday.

Edited by Jaggers

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24 minutes ago, BlockedQuebecois said:

Thanks for the great post Uriel! 

I have a question for those more "in the know" than I: is 1L hiring increasing in Toronto again? I was under the impression most firms had cut back on 1L hiring back during the financial crisis, and that still hadn't recovered. Have I been reading bad sources, or working off outdated information? 

 

I'm not sure about the pre-Great Recession hiring statistics for all 1L positions, but based on the hiring reports of Ultra Vires (U of T Law's newspaper), 1L Bay St. hiring increased, for the most part, between 2013-2016 and then dipped during this year's recruiting cycle by 8 spots (see 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 reports). Second-year recruitment also took a big hit this year as Bay St. shed 45 positions compared to last year.

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18 minutes ago, Jaggers said:

Lots of time on your hands... You must have just settled something that was scheduled for trial on Monday.

Close, close.  It's actually going forward and I just left this open and tapped away at it for a few days.

6 minutes ago, DDarko said:

I'm not sure about the pre-Great Recession hiring statistics for all 1L positions, but based on the hiring reports of Ultra Vires (U of T Law's newspaper), 1L Bay St. hiring increased, for the most part, between 2013-2016 and then dipped during this year's recruiting cycle by 8 spots (see 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 reports). Second-year recruitment also took a big hit this year as Bay St. shed 45 positions compared to last year.

I haven't looked at the numbers but remember to keep the two numbers correlated.  Firms' 1L/2L hiring will dip when they satisfy their staffing needs through the other process.

So if I hire 15 1Ls instead of 10, I'll hire 20 2Ls instead of 25 the following October.

Or if we loved the applicants in our OCI process and had some urgent projected staffing needs, we might hire 36 through OCIs instead of the usual 28 --- but then only take 3 1Ls instead of 7 when we're hiring just three months later.

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21 minutes ago, Uriel said:

Close, close.  It's actually going forward and I just left this open and tapped away at it for a few days.

Oh thank God. I was reading your post and despairing, assuming you just wrote it all spontaneously. 'I'm never going to be able to sound that smart', I thought to myself. (Which is probably still true, but I feel like I have a fighting chance now.)

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21 hours ago, Uriel said:

That being said, I issue my usual warning against the certainty of damaging your 1L grades versus the extreme uncertainty of an attempt to secure a virtually mythical 1L summer job.  I didn't apply for them when there were only four available in the City of Toronto, and I still wouldn't today unless I had really desirable work experience, specialist credentials, or stratospheric fall grades.  It's such a huge amount of work and distraction at such a competitive time for such a low-probability shot.

I, for one, wish I had this advice before I sunk a bunch of time into applications earlier this semester.

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Posted (edited)

23 hours ago, Uriel said:

Hard to say across the board but I'm getting a very strong buzz from a number of different firms.  Expect hireback to be high.  We're all on fire over here.  I'd be very surprised if 1L hiring didn't at least maintain in place over last year.

That being said, I issue my usual warning against the certainty of damaging your 1L grades versus the extreme uncertainty of an attempt to secure a virtually mythical 1L summer job.  I didn't apply for them when there were only four available in the City of Toronto, and I still wouldn't today unless I had really desirable work experience, specialist credentials, or stratospheric fall grades.  It's such a huge amount of work and distraction at such a competitive time for such a low-probability shot.

What's an example of really desirable work experience? Just curious, I've heard mixed things about whether pre-law school work experience helps with hiring etc.

Edited by Starling

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14 minutes ago, Starling said:

What's an example of really desirable work experience? Just curious, I've heard mixed things about whether pre-law school work experience helps with hiring etc.

Medical doctor.  Chemical engineer.  Securities broker.  Surveyor.  Certified Management Accountant.

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Posted (edited)

On 4/27/2017 at 1:13 PM, Uriel said:

 

Here's what you ought to do.  Get a draft without the notes ready. Attach it to a quick e-mail advising opposing counsel of the issue and asking them to destroy the original and advising that a fresh copy is on its way.  Then call me and let me know what the problem is and what you plan to do about it.  I might have a better idea, but I also might just have to say "ok, go ahead".

Just want to point out – I'm pretty sure what Uriel meant was have a plan, then go to the senior lawyer, then execute the plan. If he actually meant that you should act ahead of time after doing something as serious as sending confidential information, even where the senior is immediately available, I would have to disagree (though note I have nothing but a summer under my belt). That seems... risky.  

Edited by Ambit
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1 minute ago, Ambit said:

Just want to point out – I'm pretty sure what Uriel meant was have a plan, then go to the senior lawyer, then execute the plan. If he actually meant that you should act ahead of time after doing something as serious as sending confidential information, even where the senior is immediately available, I would have to disagree (though note I have nothing but a summer under my belt). That seems... risky.  

Why would that be risky? In the situation described it seems like time is of the essence, and sending a corrected copy (as an email) of something you were already supposed to have sent seems unlinkely to cause any harm. Especially when the alternative is very likely to cause harm. 

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BTW, if anyone imagines themselves contributing to this board like Uriel does when they finally get into a firm and have advice to give ...

  1. Me, too. I remember being young and full of dreams.
  2. It's not a bad goal but,
  3. You'll probably fail. (classic LS.ca negativity).

Uriel is one of a kind. You will never be Uriel. You will never write like Uriel.

Luckily, you are probably great all on your own, so chin up and keep being the best you that you can be. ;) 

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5 hours ago, Ambit said:

Just want to point out – I'm pretty sure what Uriel meant was have a plan, then go to the senior lawyer, then execute the plan. If he actually meant that you should act ahead of time after doing something as serious as sending confidential information, even where the senior is immediately available, I would have to disagree (though note I have nothing but a summer under my belt). That seems... risky.  

Yes, that is what I meant.  I specifically didn't say send the e-mail, but that sentence was definitely ambiguous as to whether you should send it or not.  I'm saying, get your solution ready and then go check to see whether you execute.

40 minutes ago, Another Hutz said:

BTW, if anyone imagines themselves contributing to this board like Uriel does when they finally get into a firm and have advice to give ...

  1. Me, too. I remember being young and full of dreams.
  2. It's not a bad goal but,
  3. You'll probably fail. (classic LS.ca negativity).

Uriel is one of a kind. You will never be Uriel. You will never write like Uriel.

Luckily, you are probably great all on your own, so chin up and keep being the best you that you can be.  

[shoeless in the photocopy room with a tumbler of bourbon]

yes i am the ultimate role model

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Another Hutz said:

BTW, if anyone imagines themselves contributing to this board like Uriel does when they finally get into a firm and have advice to give ...

  1. Me, too. I remember being young and full of dreams.
  2. It's not a bad goal but,
  3. You'll probably fail. (classic LS.ca negativity).

Uriel is one of a kind. You will never be Uriel. You will never write like Uriel.

Luckily, you are probably great all on your own, so chin up and keep being the best you that you can be.  

Well I stand corrected, I guess this is why Uriel is a lawyer, Ambit is a summer student, and I work in healthcare research. 

Edited by BlockedQuebecois
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15 hours ago, Uriel said:

[shoeless in the photocopy room with a tumbler of bourbon]

yes i am the ultimate role model

Your humility is only proving my point.

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On 4/28/2017 at 8:43 PM, Another Hutz said:

BTW, if anyone imagines themselves contributing to this board like Uriel does when they finally get into a firm and have advice to give ...

  1. Me, too. I remember being young and full of dreams.
  2. It's not a bad goal but,
  3. You'll probably fail. (classic LS.ca negativity).

Uriel is one of a kind. You will never be Uriel. You will never write like Uriel.

Luckily, you are probably great all on your own, so chin up and keep being the best you that you can be.  

Promise I'm not trying to be. Just making sure some panicked summer student who googles this doesn't get canned cause they didn't read close enough. 

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Posted (edited)

On 4/28/2017 at 4:21 PM, BlockedQuebecois said:

Why would that be risky? In the situation described it seems like time is of the essence, and sending a corrected copy (as an email) of something you were already supposed to have sent seems unlinkely to cause any harm. Especially when the alternative is very likely to cause harm. 

I think as a general principle, if the senior is available, and it's really serious, it shows terrible judgement to keep acting without advice. First thing they tell you in week one is that if you screw up, tell somebody. Uriel's view, imo, properly threads the line between 'helpless' and 'reckless.'

 

Edited by Ambit
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11 minutes ago, Ambit said:

I think as a general principle, if the senior is available, and it's really serious, it shows terrible judgement to keep acting without advice. First thing they tell you in week one is that if you screw up, tell somebody. Uriel's view, imo, threads the line between 'helpless' and 'reckless.'

 

I think Uriel is just saying to have the solution thought out, maybe even ready-to-go if it doesn't take too much time, before bringing the problem to someone else. Then at least you'll have a "this is what I would do to fix it" in your pocket instead of just going "gaah I messed up, help me!".

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Just now, kiamia said:

I think Uriel is just saying to have the solution thought out, maybe even ready-to-go if it doesn't take too much time, before bringing the problem to someone else. Then at least you'll have a "this is what I would do to fix it" in your pocket instead of just going "gaah I messed up, help me!".

Yup. I totally agree. 

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