dual2018

Current 1L Dual. Ask me (almost) anything.

74 posts in this topic

I know that we'd need a study permit/student visa to legally go to university in the States. How long does it take for the visa to be processed and for you to receive it?

 

The schools take care of it, you don't have to worry about it at all. If you are serious about pursuing the Dual program, I'd considering getting a Nexus pass asap. If you don't have one/don't know what it is, it's a special document (looks similar to a driver's license) which drastically speeds up US/Canada border crossing times, by allowing you to pass through reserved Nexus lanes at land crossings and at the airport. In addition, since they interview and do a background check on you before receiving the card, you're considered a much "lower risk" traveller, so the questioning is a lot easier and simpler at the border. Everyone in the Dual program has one, and it saves so much time at the border. The only down side is that because we also get an F-1 Student Visa, you're required to carry that paper with you and your actual passport at all times, but you still get to fly through the reserved Nexus lane, assuming everyone in your car has a Nexus pass. You can find more info here: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/prog/nexus/menu-eng.html

Edited by CanadianJD27

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Why on earth would you do the dual program at Windsor? It costs a fortune and Detroit is ranked so low that it doesn't even make US News ranking of law schools.

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Why on earth would you do the dual program at Windsor? It costs a fortune and Detroit is ranked so low that it doesn't even make US News ranking of law schools.

 

Considering 30-40% of the class (more than the single JD program) managed to land Summer OCI & Articling positions at the biggest Bay Street firms with $1,500/week salary, and some even landing at prestigious Michigan firms who's pay is in excess of $3,000 USD/week, seems like financially it was a smart bet. Other students landed positions at other equally prestigious firms in Toronto, Calgary, and elsewhere, and some are going to be clerking for judges or working for the government. Furthermore, almost everyone has secured an Articling position from my class, yet it is not even December (note: I have many friends at Western, Osgoode, U of T, Queens, and elsewhere who have not been so fortunate). This, in addition to the many wonderful "hands-on" type experiences such as Moot Court competitions at Oxford University and in New York, externship and clinical opportunities which are second to none - safe to say the Dual Program was a safe bet. So as much as I appreciate your elitism and candour (probably coming from someone who hasn't even been admitted to law school), you should probably take it elsewhere. 

Edited by CanadianJD27
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Considering 30-40% of the class (more than the single JD program) managed to land Summer OCI & Articling positions at the biggest Bay Street firms with $1,500/week salary, and some even landing at prestigious Michigan firms who's pay is in excess of $3,000 USD/week, seems like financially it was a smart bet. Other students landed positions at other equally prestigious firms in Toronto, Calgary, and elsewhere, and some are going to be clerking for judges or working for the government. Furthermore, almost everyone has secured an Articling position from my class, yet it is not even December (note: I have many friends at Western, Osgoode, U of T, Queens, and elsewhere who have not been so fortunate). This, in addition to the many wonderful "hands-on" type experiences such as Moot Court competitions at Oxford University and in New York, externship and clinical opportunities which are second to none - safe to say the Dual Program was a safe bet. So as much as I appreciate your elitism and candour (probably coming from someone who hasn't even been admitted to law school), you should probably take it elsewhere. 

 

 

I get wanting to defend your school, and nothing against Windsor, I know some fantastic people who went there who are now very successful, but what you posted here is completely inaccurate. In essence you're saying that the dual students at Windsor have the highest employment stats in the country! While 50% or so of the U of T class winds up on Bay Street, not all of those people are at "the biggest Bay Street firms", and if we go off of what you're saying we can assume that the dual students at Windsor do as well on Bay Street as the U of T class does? Get real, the last two years have been banner years for Windsor with respect to Bay Street hiring and they have hired 30 ish people out of classes of 250 each year, and not all of those 30 people per year have landed at the "largest Bay Street firms". So I guess we are to assume that the majority of Bay Street hires from Windsor come from the dual program? I would have to see some actual data on that, it sounds pretty dubious. As far as landing "equally prestigious positions" in Calgary and elsewhere, sure, a few people might have landed in good positions in other markets, but the stats are what they are and again, that isn't happening in droves.

 

The fact of the matter is that while plenty of people from Windsor do just fine, it is one of the Ontario schools (along with Ottawa where the guy you're responding to goes) that presents people with a risk when they decide to go there. If you want to make it to Bay Street from Windsor you had better be on the deans list, which is no small task as there are some very talented people at the top of the class at both of those schools. And while you are saying things are all fine and dandy for everybody, the chatter I am hearing when I speak to people who go to those schools is that it is difficult out there for them (not that it isn't difficult for all of us), and they feel that the market is oversaturated. 

 

I think a more accurate response would have been that yes, the program presents a risk, and you had better work hard and do well while you are in it, but that several people in the program do navigate it successfully. This isn't elitism on my part, it is a reasoned analysis of the facts. 

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I hear what you're saying, and I can appreciate your opinion, even if we disagree. On that note, unfortunately, I cannot offer you raw data regarding where students placed, however, as we are very small group, we can all attest to who is going where and what not. If you're really curious though, Career Services at Windsor Law keeps track of this information - by all means feel free to contact them. 

 

Forgive me if I come across overtly direct, but, on a yearly basis, I see non-Dual students joining these Dual threads to give their two cents about the program - one which they've never set food in. Out of curiosity, as a non-Dual or non-Windsor student (your post seems to suggest U of T but I'm not sure) what brought you to this thread? Did you perhaps transfer from the Dual Program or do you have any experience here or merely anecdotal thoughts? This seems to be a recurring theme and I genuinely feel really sorry for the original author of this thread and interested students in the program.

 

Best of luck in your exams - I'll leave you with the last word. 

Edited by CanadianJD27

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I hear what you're saying, and I can appreciate your opinion, even if we disagree. On that note, unfortunately, I cannot offer you raw data regarding where students placed, however, as we are very small group, we can all attest to who is going where and what not. If you're really curious though, Career Services at Windsor Law keeps track of this information - by all means feel free to contact them.

 

Forgive me if I come across overtly direct, but, on a yearly basis, I see non-Dual students joining these Dual threads to give their two cents about the program - one which they've never set food in. Out of curiosity, as a non-Dual or non-Windsor student (your post seems to suggest U of T but I'm not sure) what brought you to this thread? Did you perhaps transfer from the Dual Program or do you have any experience here or merely anecdotal thoughts? This seems to be a recurring theme and I genuinely feel really sorry for the original author of this thread and interested students in the program.

 

Best of luck in your exams - I'll leave you with the last word.

I'm only here to address the misinformation in your post. A student enrolling in the dual program at Windsor does not have a 30-40% chance at a job with one of the biggest Bay Street firms. In reality only 12% of the Windsor class lands on Bay Street in some capacity, and less than that land at the "biggest Bay Street firms". There is no demonstrable reason why a dual student would outperform the rest of the group when it comes to recruiting.

 

Again, I understand why you would want to defend your school against someone who said something obnoxious about it, but posting misleading information that may be relied on isn't helping prospective students. Keep in mind that those enrolling in the dual program are overwhelmingly those who don't have other Canadian JD options, and in many cases are people who will take on a lot of debt to complete the program. They have a right to know what the employment prospects actually are before they take on that burden.

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Considering 30-40% of the class (more than the single JD program) managed to land Summer OCI & Articling positions at the biggest Bay Street firms with $1,500/week salary, and some even landing at prestigious Michigan firms who's pay is in excess of $3,000 USD/week, seems like financially it was a smart bet. Other students landed positions at other equally prestigious firms in Toronto, Calgary, and elsewhere, and some are going to be clerking for judges or working for the government. Furthermore, almost everyone has secured an Articling position from my class, yet it is not even December (note: I have many friends at Western, Osgoode, U of T, Queens, and elsewhere who have not been so fortunate). This, in addition to the many wonderful "hands-on" type experiences such as Moot Court competitions at Oxford University and in New York, externship and clinical opportunities which are second to none - safe to say the Dual Program was a safe bet. So as much as I appreciate your elitism and candour (probably coming from someone who hasn't even been admitted to law school), you should probably take it elsewhere. 

I think Dennings has addressed your misinformation and my post wasn't elitist. I asked a realistic question. The dual program at Windsor is incredibly expensively and I just don't see the pay back.  I actually considered Windsor's dual program, but I decided against it because I didn't see the value for money. I wanted the option of working anywhere in America, but when I spoke to numerous large American law firms, none of theme recommended Detroit. I think it makes a lot more sense to take the single JD at Windsor. For the record, I got into every Canadian law school I applied to. 

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I'm only here to address the misinformation in your post. A student enrolling in the dual program at Windsor does not have a 30-40% chance at a job with one of the biggest Bay Street firms. In reality only 12% of the Windsor class lands on Bay Street in some capacity, and less than that land at the "biggest Bay Street firms". There is no demonstrable reason why a dual student would outperform the rest of the group when it comes to recruiting.

 

Again, I understand why you would want to defend your school against someone who said something obnoxious about it, but posting misleading information that may be relied on isn't helping prospective students. Keep in mind that those enrolling in the dual program are overwhelmingly those who don't have other Canadian JD options, and in many cases are people who will take on a lot of debt to complete the program. They have a right to know what the employment prospects actually are before they take on that burden.

 

 

I think Dennings has addressed your misinformation and my post wasn't elitist. I asked a realistic question. The dual program at Windsor is incredibly expensively and I just don't see the pay back.  I actually considered Windsor's dual program, but I decided against it because I didn't see the value for money. I wanted the option of working anywhere in America, but when I spoke to numerous large American law firms, none of theme recommended Detroit. I think it makes a lot more sense to take the single JD at Windsor. For the record, I got into every Canadian law school I applied to. 

 

I think it's kind of hard to say how many Dual students vs Single JD students get Bay street jobs as Windsor's public Bay Street stats are merged between the two programs. CanadianJD27 is right in that only the Career Services office at Windsor would know the actual stats. Also, in my experience, way more of the Dual students want to pursue Bay Street than the Single JD students, which I can imagine would skew results to make it look like more Dual JDs get Bay Street jobs than Single JDs. Although, the desire to pursue Bay Street may also be a result of the high tuition (more debt and therefore more pressure to get a high paying job to pay it off).

 

I'll just say that my experience through the Dual JD program has been great so far, I don't feel disadvantaged at all being in the program and have actually gotten some amazing opportunities out of the program, despite what some people may say on these forums. I think an important factor to highlight about whether you should go into the Dual JD program (which I have yet to see discussed in these forums) is your level of maturity and conviction to a particular career path. I don't think someone coming straight out of undergrad, with minimal experiences on their resume to differentiate them is a good fit for a Dual JD. I also don't think a Dual JD is for people who don't know what area of law they want to practice after law school. Lets be clear, there are reasons to pursue a dual degree in Canada and you should not enter the program if you don't know what you want to use the dual degree for. If you want to pursue international trade, international IP, international criminal law, coordination of global legal strategies, or anything else requiring an understanding of the law from a comparative perspective, the Dual JD degree will be an asset. Now I do want to differentiate that an asset is different than a requirement, you can do all of these things without a dual degree, but you may have an easier time breaking into these fields if you possess a dual degree and the the dual degree may help facilitate you in bettering your practice in these fields since you'll constantly be learning the law from a comparative perspective. In this view, I think conviction to a particular area of law is important. Lets face it, the dual degree is expensive, and you really shouldn't pursue it if you don't plan on using both degrees in some way or another, just like any other degree law or otherwise. From what I've seen, the students who were the most successful in the Dual program were the ones who knew what they wanted to do and had a good reason for pursuing both degrees, because all your interviewers for OCIs will inevitably ask you why you're pursuing a dual degree. This is also why I think maturity is important, I don't think most people coming straight out of undergrad know what area of law they want to practice, I think a few years of work experience may help to give your career goals a bit of direction, this also inevitably ends up helping in the job search during OCIs and after law. Now if what you want to do is facilitated by a dual degree, Windsor probably has the best dual program in the country, you get both degrees in 3 years, and you're learning both legal systems simultaneously (as opposed to sequentially which is what other dual programs in the country do). This aspect of the program will help facilitate your learning of the law from a comparative perspective as well, which is important for careers with an international focus/aspect. I think the Dual JD program is a bad match for someone if they don't know what they want to do with their career and just want to get a law degree to get a secure and high paying job. The Dual JD program rewards conviction, just like any other program and due to the high cost of the program, if you don't have conviction then you shouldn't go into the program.

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I've been on this forum for a few years and I'll never understand why people feel the need to come onto Windsor's forum just to trash talk the Dual program. There are so many threads where applicants are genuinely seeking information to make an informed decision, only to have the thread get derailed. It's as though non-windsor students need to make themselves feel better about their respective programs by crapping on another program. 

 

I don't go to Windsor but I have two friends that do and they absolutely love the Dual program. There are pros and cons just like any other program/any other school. 

 

TL;DR: trolls need not comment on Windsor threads. Allow potential applicants to seek information. If you have something constructive to add great, if not, just be quiet! 

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I've been on this forum for a few years and I'll never understand why people feel the need to come onto Windsor's forum just to trash talk the Dual program. There are so many threads where applicants are genuinely seeking information to make an informed decision, only to have the thread get derailed. It's as though non-windsor students need to make themselves feel better about their respective programs by crapping on another program. 

 

I don't go to Windsor but I have two friends that do and they absolutely love the Dual program. There are pros and cons just like any other program/any other school. 

 

TL;DR: trolls need not comment on Windsor threads. Allow potential applicants to seek information. If you have something constructive to add great, if not, just be quiet! 

 

My thoughts exactly. As a Dual student, I'm happy to discuss the pros and cons of the program with potential students. I'm certainly not under any illusions that the program is perfect; all law schools have their own issues. That being said, I'm perfectly happy where I am and don't feel the need to go on other law school threads to criticize those programs, especially when I don't have any experience with it. 

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Where do we send the Dual Supplemental form to? I'm assuming someone here would know. Do we email it to OLSAS or where? Please advise. 

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Is it possible to be in the Dual JD program for the 1L and then transfer to the regular JD at Windsor for the rest of the years?

 

Thank you for clarifying.

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Is it possible to be in the Dual JD program for the 1L and then transfer to the regular JD at Windsor for the rest of the years?

 

Thank you for clarifying.

I can't speak from experience, as I have never attended Windsor, but a friend of mine transferred from the dual program at Windsor to Osgoode. She told that Windsor doesn't like students transferring from the dual to the single. However, you'll have a good shot at transferring to other Ontario schools, as the marking in the dual program is pretty generous.

Edited by JohnP

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I can't speak from experience, as I have never attended Windsor, but a friend of mine transferred from the dual program at Windsor to Osgoode. She told that Windsor doesn't like students transferring from the dual to the single. However, you'll have a good shot at transferring to other Ontario schools, as the marking in the dual program is pretty generous.

 

I was thinking that Windsor would be accepting of the transfer as you would already have studied with Windsor and have some of their credits for a start.

Edited by CrimNation

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The marking is definitely not "very generous" you have to earn every single mark, which is listed as a percentage not letter, and the curve can really screw you over. Definitely not a walk in the park (source:current dual).There was I think one or two students who transferred to single JD but it's very difficult to do so, you need extenuating circumstances, they won't care about your marks. Easier to transfer to other Ontario schools. If you're sole goal of dual is to transfer I'd consider taking a year off to reapply, rewrite lsat and try and up your grades. It costs a lot of money and doesn't make sense to take up someone else's spot who may genuinely be interested in the program.

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The marking is definitely not "very generous" you have to earn every single mark, which is listed as a percentage not letter, and the curve can really screw you over. Definitely not a walk in the park (source:current dual).There was I think one or two students who transferred to single JD but it's very difficult to do so, you need extenuating circumstances, they won't care about your marks. Easier to transfer to other Ontario schools. If you're sole goal of dual is to transfer I'd consider taking a year off to reapply, rewrite lsat and try and up your grades. It costs a lot of money and doesn't make sense to take up someone else's spot who may genuinely be interested in the program.

 

Are you familiar with people who have transferred to other Ontario schools? If so, how often are people successful in doing so? And could you elaborate a little on the curve. I understand it's around a "B" which is 70-75 on the Windsor percentile scale?

Edited by ristiisa

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Approximately 10-15 students transfer each year (about that number did in mine). Not sure how many applied but didn't get in. Our classes are on a 73-75 curve which means they take your "raw score" and adjust it artificially at the end of the semester to meet this curve. Your raw score itself doesn't matter, it's how you rank compared to others which determines your final grade. So for example let's say your final mark is 75, but the distribution of grades is 75-80, so that means you technically got the lowest mark in the class and your final grade might get dropped to 69-70 so that the class average is around that 73-75 mark. That's my understanding at least. If you're looking to exclusively get into this program to transfer, I'd advise against it. There's certainly some issues which need to be addressed but there's many people who would kill to be here, there's no guarantee you can even transfer (meaning you're taking a very expensive gamble), and the experience (classes, clinics, moots, externships, speaking engagements, etc) and the friends you make will last a life time. If you have further questions please reach out to the admin or any dual students you know. This thread is filled with trolls who love to hate on the program but aren't even duals so have 0 experience with it. Talk to the admin or actual duals. Good luck!

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Approximately 10-15 students transfer each year (about that number did in mine). Not sure how many applied but didn't get in. Our classes are on a 73-75 curve which means they take your "raw score" and adjust it artificially at the end of the semester to meet this curve. Your raw score itself doesn't matter, it's how you rank compared to others which determines your final grade. So for example let's say your final mark is 75, but the distribution of grades is 75-80, so that means you technically got the lowest mark in the class and your final grade might get dropped to 69-70 so that the class average is around that 73-75 mark. That's my understanding at least. If you're looking to exclusively get into this program to transfer, I'd advise against it. There's certainly some issues which need to be addressed but there's many people who would kill to be here, there's no guarantee you can even transfer (meaning you're taking a very expensive gamble), and the experience (classes, clinics, moots, externships, speaking engagements, etc) and the friends you make will last a life time. If you have further questions please reach out to the admin or any dual students you know. This thread is filled with trolls who love to hate on the program but aren't even duals so have 0 experience with it. Talk to the admin or actual duals. Good luck!

 

Thank you for your response! I ask regarding the transfers out of curiosity - I have no personal interest in doing so at any point. That seems like quite a substantial number of students leaving though. I appreciate your input on the curve as well, that seems to make it quite competitive if your final grade is more or less relative to your peers. I would assume this is not unique to Windsor however - I have not done my research. Thanks again for your help, all the best.

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I just received an email from the University of Windsor that I am still missing the following document(s):

 

Law Writing Sample (Dual JD)

 

​Is this because I still have not written my LSAT (I am writing on February 4th)?

 

Thank you for the clarification guys!

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