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Uriel

Fourth-year Bay Street Litigation Associate - AMA

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It seems like Sam Walker from Henein Hutchison has done some work that was related to international human rights. I thought reading his bio was really interesting; it helped me appreciate how exceptional you need to be.

 

 

"Samuel Walker’s practice is focused on criminal and regulatory litigation. Prior to joining Henein Hutchison in 2013, he was a law clerk to the Honourable Justice Morris Fish of the Supreme Court of Canada and trained for a year at leading barristers’ chambers in London, England as a Harold Fox Scholar.

 

Sam is a graduate of Yale University (B.A., History) and McGill University’s Faculty of Law (B.C.L., LL.B.), where he earned a number of academic distinctions. He studied as a Gates Scholar at the University of Cambridge, Trinity College, graduating in 2011 with the Clive Parry Prize for receiving the highest standing in the master’s programme in international law (LL.M.).

 

Sam is currently an Adjunct Professor at the University of Toronto Faculty of Law. He is also a Fellow of the Philippe Kirsch Institute, serves as pro bono duty counsel with the Downtown Legal Services Clinic on summary conviction appeals, and is on the junior counsel roster of the Criminal Lawyers’ Association Interventions Committee.

 

Sam has published articles and book chapters on topics in criminal law and public international law, including in the Canadian Journal of Law and Jurisprudence andCriminal Law Quarterly. He has assisted leading counsel in cases before the International Court of Justice, International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia and Inter-American Court of Human Rights. During his legal studies, Sam volunteered at a legal clinic for refugees in Uganda for several months and summered at a New York law firm. In 2006, he spent a year working in the War Crimes Chamber of the Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina in Sarajevo."

 

http://hhllp.ca/#team

 

Yeah, he's definitely been on my search radar for a while now. Another incredible professional that i've spent researching (and currently reading his dissertation) is Payam Akhavan. I understand it's incredibly difficult, and so i've braced myself for the likely scenario that I don't end up able to do any of the things i'm currently looking at, and the also likely scenario that I change my mind completely in terms of what i'd actually like to practise/aspire to do in the long term, but I can only act on what's in front of me right now. I appreciate yours and everyone else's help here!

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Starling    399

Yeah, he's definitely been on my search radar for a while now. Another incredible professional that i've spent researching (and currently reading his dissertation) is Payam Akhavan. I understand it's incredibly difficult, and so i've braced myself for the likely scenario that I don't end up able to do any of the things i'm currently looking at, and the also likely scenario that I change my mind completely in terms of what i'd actually like to practise/aspire to do in the long term, but I can only act on what's in front of me right now. I appreciate yours and everyone else's help here!

 

Payam Akhavan sounds like an incredibly interesting guy as well. I can definitely see why you would want to be like him or Sam Walker!

 

Best of luck. :)

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artsydork    2680

What would you recommend for a junior call taking files into the court room? Mainly, what are the absolute Uriel TM things to look out for when litigating or words of wisdom you wish you had when you were a ~1 year call.

 

... I, um, ask for a friend. :wink:

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TKNumber3    1457

What would you recommend for a junior call taking files into the court room? Mainly, what are the absolute Uriel TM things to look out for when litigating or words of wisdom you wish you had when you were a ~1 year call.

 

... I, um, ask for a friend. :wink:

 

Work a few of these in there

 

http://trailerpark.wikia.com/wiki/Rickyisms

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Radche    137

What would you recommend for a junior call taking files into the court room? Mainly, what are the absolute Uriel TM things to look out for when litigating or words of wisdom you wish you had when you were a ~1 year call.

 

... I, um, ask for a friend. :wink:

Make sure to refer to all judges as "your owner".

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Uriel    6939

If you strike out at OCIs, does that mean you will never be able to get big law? That is pretty much the boat I am in right now. 

 

This is an insidious myth.

 

If you strike out at OCIs, you've lost the easy-street approach to Bay Street.  So it is a loss, but it's far from the end of the road.

 

First, there's the articling recruit.  We all have a friend or five that didn't get a job at OCIs and then found themselves articling at a Bay Street firm, but you'd never know it from talking to current students... because we sometimes graduate (or close to it) by the time those people find out they got the gig.

 

Second, you can lateral.  We lateral all the time.  When you lose two real estate associates within six months, you need to get another one and sometimes poaching from another Bay Street firm doesn't work, or isn't practical.  We ask around about who to get from people in that bar, or get recommendations from people that went to law school with them, and pop them an interview.  So, for example, I got a call last year asking me about Person X and whether I knew them from school.  I sure did, she was great, and apparently she'd been in a mid-level tax practice and had expressed interest in moving up.  We needed a new tax associate, boom.  Here she is.

 

It's easier to lateral if you articled on Bay Street.  It's not necessary to article on Bay Street to lateral in.  What you really need at that stage is a good reputation, connected friends and (ideally) either an impressive resume or a few clients of your own.

 

Typically, if you miss the articling recruit as well, your first lateral opportunity will probably come around your third year, so keep hustling.  Or, take a look at how well you can do hustling in your existing situation and ask yourself if there's really that big a marginal difference between killing it at a mid-size firm where you'll make partner for sure, or working on Bay Street for a high salary but riskier partnership prospects, especially coming in from the outside.

 

As someone who is potentially interested in litigation, what sorts of activities did you do to improve your public speaking skills? Or were you always gifted in that area and didn't need much practice? On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being a really really damn good public speaker), I'd rate myself a 5. I've been told that I can carry a conversation well and am fairly articulate, but there are definitely a lot of room for improvement, AND, I get super nervous when I have to speak in front of a class, especially during in class participation. I mean, my palms get super sweaty, my voice starts to shake, and I start to slur my speech and I start sounding like I just immigrated here a week ago......even though I pull myself together just fine during less formal interactions. 

 

Just going to cringe my way through this one.  Sorry; I've always kind of been a public speaking guy.  Drama classes, speeches, videos and presentations even when unnecessary for school, and I was a speechwriter for a while.  I started doing public speaking at a young age in arts festivals and liked drama so much I studied it in college.  I've been in a few plays and operas.  I wouldn't say I'm a great public speaker, but I don't have any fear of crowds.  (As it turns out, everyone wants you to do well and sympathizes or falls asleep if you don't.)

 

A lot of people do, though, and manage to overcome it.  I might leave those tips to them, but in the meantime I'll say that while I wasn't scared of public speaking, I was afraid of public screwing everything up.  And nothing helped my confidence more than sitting in a few courtrooms over the first year or so and watching just how spectacularly poorly prepared some people are, and watching self-represented litigants make presentations in court.  Impolite as it might sound, you can get a lot of confidence from the knowledge that with a little elbow grease, even if you do stutter and sweat, you can still be one of the more effective people that judge is going to see today.

 

Just a couple of questions I randomly came up with!

 

I think I read awhile back that your not from Toronto, so were you ever faced with a dilemma about where (city, province) you wanted to work and settle down? This is more for some friends I know who are faced with a decision of having to leave home and with the possibility of not coming back because of distance, competition and the somewhat black hole that is life after law school. 

 

Also, I'm in third year university with the intention of applying to law schools in the fall. Do you have any advice regarding applications, LSAT, preparing for what's likely to be a very busy final year with highs and lows while waiting to hear back from schools?

 

I didn't have that dilemma, really.  I had already decided to make Toronto my home and that kinda makes it easy.  It's home and it has the most jobs in the areas I'm interested in.  But I'll always echo the most common advice out there: go to school where you want to practice.  Your network is so important; arguably the second most important thing you'll get out of law school other than your degree.  If you want to practice in Calgary, do not go to a 'better' school elsewhere.  The vague sense that maybe you're smart is not nearly as great a benefit as having 50 friends nearby that might be hiring.

 

I applied to law school after taking a year to work, so I didn't have to do any balancing (man, this is like four "not me" questions in a row!).  My big tips at each stage, though:

  • Applications: Remember your audience!  Think about what they are trying to do here, more than what you want to say, and tailor your application appropriately.
  • LSAT: Don't get the flu the day of.  Also take a few weeks to practice, be merciless with timing yourself, and always read the question before the background info.
  • Waiting to hear back: Insomnia has $3 shooters on Fridays and Saturdays.

 

Sort of a follow up question regarding not knowing what type of law you want to go into. You mentioned making a list of things you don't want to do, which is definitely something I will try, but as a 0L, is it bad to go into law school clueless (for lack of a better word)? Should you have some sort of idea as you begin law school or is it alright to take a very open minded approach and use that first year to find an area of law that you would be well suited to?

 

Absolutely that last part.  And you'll still have no idea when you graduate, though you might have a few clues.  Like, I did so badly at Tax that even though I was really open to doing tax litigation I knew I just wasn't cut out for it.  You'll get a few of those "no"s, but generally you might just get a vague sense of what interests you.  You're going to require some practical experience before you really know what area of law you're well suited to, though.

 

For example, you might really really love Aboriginal law in law school, but then in practice see what it's like to litigate against the Crown for a couple of years and change your mind (or vice versa).

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Hegdis    12285

As someone who is potentially interested in litigation, what sorts of activities did you do to improve your public speaking skills? Or were you always gifted in that area and didn't need much practice? On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being a really really damn good public speaker), I'd rate myself a 5. I've been told that I can carry a conversation well and am fairly articulate, but there are definitely a lot of room for improvement, AND, I get super nervous when I have to speak in front of a class, especially during in class participation. I mean, my palms get super sweaty, my voice starts to shake, and I start to slur my speech and I start sounding like I just immigrated here a week ago......even though I pull myself together just fine during less formal interactions.

Exposure exposure exposure.

 

If you avoid speaking in front of groups of people all you are doing is confirming to yourself that it is something to fear and building it up more and more in your head.

 

If you tough it out - repeatedly and in a short period of time - you are challenging that anxiety and proving to yourself that nothing bad is going to happen. Your fear then recedes.

 

Trust me when I say eventually all you have to deal with are the usual butterflies almost everyone experiences just before rising to their feet in court to make a complicated or unpopular argument. Managable and something you can acknowledge and safely ignore.

 

So join toastmasters or a debate club or try out for a moot or anything that makes you feel that fear. And then do it again. And again. There is no shortcut.

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Uriel    6939

What would you recommend for a junior call taking files into the court room? Mainly, what are the absolute Uriel TM things to look out for when litigating or words of wisdom you wish you had when you were a ~1 year call.

 

... I, um, ask for a friend. :wink:

 

Well one of these days we'll just have to get a pint and I'll tell you!

 

But generally... at least in my case I neglected the advice you keep getting from judges.  Keep it simple, keep it short, establish a theme and a theory.  I could put together really beautiful, nuanced arguments and the court would always give me the alternative relief.  If I can give you an award because that's what's been done in 50 other cases, that's much easier to rubber-stamp than an argument that you should get the award because of a first-principles argument from natural justice.

 

Judges are very, very, very busy people.  They're capable of great intellectual calisthenics when it's called for, but it's rarely called for.  Just state your case if the facts are on your side.  State the law if they're not.  And if neither are going your way, settle.

 

And always establish a theme and a theory.  In law school you're taught a little bit about a theory: how does your side win?  And so when I'm judging moots or facing off against junior calls (OMG I can call someone a junior call what is happening) they'll often start in the middle of the law and wander back out to the relief they want.  The judge often has to stop them and ask factual questions.

 

What you want to do is establish both a theme and a theory.  The theme is, "Why should your guy win?"  Good theories are things like "the other guy has been stalling forever", or "this guy's out $500,000 because he trusted the other guy", or "this guy has never been made to pay for his sins".

 

Then, once you have the judge interested in helping your client, the theory of the case clicks in.

 

So,

 

Step 1: In any fair world, my client should get the relief she seeks.  

 

Step 2: Here's how you get there --- first, you find as a fact the other side did this, then you find that her interest outweighs the privilege the other side claims (here are two cases you can cite), and boom.  You've made a real difference to someone deserving of help today.

 

"What's the right thing to do, and how do I do it?"  Right there you're off to a better start than 75% of the cases on the docket with you.

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Uriel    6939

Exposure exposure exposure.

 

If you avoid speaking in front of groups of people all you are doing is confirming to yourself that it is something to fear and building it up more and more in your head.

 

If you tough it out - repeatedly and in a short period of time - you are challenging that anxiety and proving to yourself that nothing bad is going to happen. Your fear then recedes.

 

Trust me when I say eventually all you have to deal with are the usual butterflies almost everyone experiences just before rising to their feet in court to make a complicated or unpopular argument. Managable and something you can acknowledge and safely ignore.

 

So join toastmasters or a debate club or try out for a moot or anything that makes you feel that fear. And then do it again. And again. There is no shortcut.

 

Also, small groups are almost always scarier than big ones because you can kind of have a relationship with everyone in the audience.  If you can join a club that lets you speak in front of a large crowd, it might be easier.  I hate singing (no good at it) or reciting things for friends, but I'll happily do a speech for an anonymous sea of 200 people whose reactions are so predictable that you can actually build them into the running time of the speech.  It's like talking to an ocean or a virtual audience; it's not people, it's a mob.

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Hello12345    49

Another question, how did you know that you wanted to be a litigator? Is there an opportunity during law school to experience both solicitor and barrister work? I am just curious as to how one decides which direction take.  

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Uriel    6939

There's virtually no exposure to solicitor work in law school at all.  As a result, a lot of people show up to article hell-bent on litigation and only gradually come to the realization that they prefer the lifestyle elsewhere, or that the challenges of certain solicitor practices are a lot more interesting and fun than they expected.  It very rarely works the other way around.

 

If anything, it's a good thing there's so much exposure to litigation in law school because it scares off easily as many people as it attracts.  You might not have to know you enjoy solicitor work to know you never want to do barrister work!

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SpecterH    514

Before even beginning my summer job as a 2L, I'm already finding conflicts in my schedule. Life is always going to happen. I'm going to have out-of-town weddings, a friend's birthday party, etc. How do you balance everything on your plate? As I start at my firm this summer, I am viewing it as a clean slate; I can be whoever I want to be. I feel like I've slacked through high school, undergrad, law school, and every single job in between. I want this summer to be...different. I want to impress everybody that I work with because I know this could very easily become the place I work for a very long time - and that excites me.

 

I just know that...life happens. And work is a bit different than school (school is much more flexible). For lack of better way to phrase it - how do you manage your life? There will be large events that come up regularly (as mentioned earlier) but then there will always be the things that happen on a day-to-day basis like making sure you get your workout in or meeting some of your university buddies for drinks. I want work to be a priority - and it should be. I just don't know how to balance everything to make sure that work isn't 100% while social life, family, friends, personal time, etc. is hanging low at 0%.

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bernard    991

A lot of full service firms sell the fact that students can decide what they want to practice pretty far into the summer/articling/associate process. I'm wondering when you think that freedom ends. Can a first year associate decide that litigation isn't for them after all and try to move to transactional work? Can an articling student campaign for a different practice group with 1 or 2 month left?

 

I guess I'm curious to hear when you feel an individual gets "locked in" to their given area, within the firm (obviously leaving the firm really broadens the options).

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Another Hutz    1609

As someone who is potentially interested in litigation, what sorts of activities did you do to improve your public speaking skills? Or were you always gifted in that area and didn't need much practice? On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being a really really damn good public speaker), I'd rate myself a 5. I've been told that I can carry a conversation well and am fairly articulate, but there are definitely a lot of room for improvement, AND, I get super nervous when I have to speak in front of a class, especially during in class participation. I mean, my palms get super sweaty, my voice starts to shake, and I start to slur my speech and I start sounding like I just immigrated here a week ago......even though I pull myself together just fine during less formal interactions. 

 

Adding to Hegdis' point. Anything that's a "performance" counts. It doesn't need to be theatre or toast masters. Sports helps. You're out there on the field or on the court, you feel the pressure, other people are relying on you to make it happen, you know you can but you question yourself. Even if you miss, it's easier the second time. Exposure, exposure, exposure.

 

Here's a nerdy example. I recently attended a video game tournament. I'm not bad, I'm not great, I did prepare though. That first match ...  your hands tremble and your fingers are jittery, and you have use the adrenaline without letting it take control over you. You know people are watching, you don't want to do anything stupid, but no one really cares and everyone understands. You have to make decisions, take risks, start a string of hits without being sure how it's going to end. 

 

Even if you lose, as long as you focus on your effort, it'll be a positive experience. Practice makes perfect. 

Edited by Another Hutz
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Uriel    6939

Before even beginning my summer job as a 2L, I'm already finding conflicts in my schedule. Life is always going to happen. I'm going to have out-of-town weddings, a friend's birthday party, etc. How do you balance everything on your plate? As I start at my firm this summer, I am viewing it as a clean slate; I can be whoever I want to be. I feel like I've slacked through high school, undergrad, law school, and every single job in between. I want this summer to be...different. I want to impress everybody that I work with because I know this could very easily become the place I work for a very long time - and that excites me.

 

I just know that...life happens. And work is a bit different than school (school is much more flexible). For lack of better way to phrase it - how do you manage your life? There will be large events that come up regularly (as mentioned earlier) but then there will always be the things that happen on a day-to-day basis like making sure you get your workout in or meeting some of your university buddies for drinks. I want work to be a priority - and it should be. I just don't know how to balance everything to make sure that work isn't 100% while social life, family, friends, personal time, etc. is hanging low at 0%.

 

Oh, that's super easy.  You can't!  Not at all.  Not even a little bit.

 

But here's the secret --- ready?

 

... yet.

 

I'm just now getting to a point where I'm scheduling motions on days that work for me.  I set up client meetings after 11:00, when I know I'll be awake.  I ask students to get me research two days early in case something crazy comes up.  I'm in a place now where Mrs. Uriel can ask me what the week looks like and I can tell her I'm staying late Monday *cough* and Thursday, and I'll be home early Tuesday and Friday.  

 

There's absolutely no way that would have been possible as a student or a first year associate.

 

As a student or first-year, you are often brought in to deal with emergencies.  The lawyer might do a good job of making it not sound like an emergency, but unless you were added to a file early just in case something came up, odds are you're dealing with 60% emergency matters instead of the typical 20% (or whatever it is in your practice group).

 

It gets a lot better with seniority, but most people get so freaked out by the complete dumpster fire that is their social life that they quit and go work somewhere else before they realize that.

 

It's going to be bad.  Maybe really bad.  For quite a while.  But then, eventually, you're in charge of more and more of your life.  Not all of it, but more of it every day.  And it gets easier.

 

In the meantime, you just have to schedule things you normally didn't have to schedule.  Get your friends together next Tuesday at 7:00 and check in on all your files Monday night to increase your odds that it'll work out.  Especially at the junior levels, sometimes things only come up at the last minute because the lawyer in charge is too busy to call you in to give you instructions, and if you check in the day before you might get yourself some extra lead time.

 

Or, if you're not on any files, set up a trade with another student.  You cover me as I take off early on Tuesday, I'll get your back on Thursday.

 

You can't control your schedule as a student.  You can only maximize your odds and wait out the storm.  Just remember when your time comes, to take all the steps you can to make it easier for the students working for you.

 

A lot of full service firms sell the fact that students can decide what they want to practice pretty far into the summer/articling/associate process. I'm wondering when you think that freedom ends. Can a first year associate decide that litigation isn't for them after all and try to move to transactional work? Can an articling student campaign for a different practice group with 1 or 2 month left?

 

I guess I'm curious to hear when you feel an individual gets "locked in" to their given area, within the firm (obviously leaving the firm really broadens the options).

 

Never?

 

It really, really depends on the firm.  Smaller or less regimented firms can do this, with some hassle, all the way through associateship.  Certainly most, I think, are more than happy to have you seek hireback in an unexpected group, as long as that group is receptive.  Happens all the time.  I have friends that segued into related practice areas after six years of practice, and unrelated areas after one or two.  But it's going to depend on the needs of the firm and their view on you as an investment.  If you're doing bankruptcy litigation, moving over into the bankruptcy group isn't that big a switch.  

 

If, however, you're doing real estate and you want to do competition law after six years of practice, that causes all kinds of chaos.  How can we charge sixth-year rates for you when you have no relevant experience in competition law?  Why are we giving up a $550 hourly rate for you to go do competition law when we could just get someone junior and keep you in real estate making money hand over fist?

 

I like this thread a lot. 

 

Well, I like your very fine hat.

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SpecterH    514

That is not reassuring, haha. I figured things would get better in time; at a large firm, I am supposed to 'know' what I'm getting myself into. I guess my question is how much of your life do you have to sacrifice in order to do well at your work (as a student and young associate)? I fear I may have to miss out on a lot of my life with my friends, family, relationships, etc. in order to truly excel in the early stages of my career at a large firm. Is this accurate?

 

What about relationships? Are they even remotely possible as a student or young associate? Would you have to essentially live with your partner in order to ensure you saw them more than once every two weeks?

 

How did you approach the early stages of your work - as a summer student, articling student, and as a young associate? Did you just never make plans with friends or family out of concern something may come up at work? Did you miss out on a lot? Were you unable to do a lot of the stuff you wanted to do (i.e., go to the gym daily, play a sport, etc.)? I realize my question is quite vague and I'm doing my best to phrase it in a way that's easy to respond to. I'm just concerned about maintaining a balance in my life from the get-go but I fear it's not possible.

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Uriel    6939

That is a big question.  You could write a book on it. 

 

I'm probably not the right person to answer.  I did a terrible job of balancing it all out.  I worked a lot more than I probably had to.  I still don't see my friends as much as I'd like, but I'm at the stage now where I don't feel like I'm being a bad father that's gone too often, and I feel good about having achieved that small measure of balance.  I see Urielette every morning for two or three hours and we hang out two nights a week and all weekend long.  It's pretty good.  

 

Of course, to get that kind of time with her I have to really do a dance to fit in friends and the gym.  Every minute is taken up with something.  There's not a lot of Netflix going on over here.

 

Everyone's got stories about the toll the hours can take on relationships.  And yet, virtually everyone winds up in a relationship and with kids somehow.

 

You'll get a lot of different advice.  Some people will say, just bite the bullet.  You're going to put your head down for one summer, and then for 10 months.  That's nothing in exchange for the kind of career you can strive for if you do that successfully.  That was basically my school of thought, and it worked and I'm pretty okay with it.  

 

Others are going to say you have to defend your personal time jealously.  That might work, but I've also seen it not work.  When everyone else in the office has been working around the clock and giving up important things in order to respond to a crucial client emergency, it's not going to go over well when you dump the rest of your work on someone else because you have a family brunch every Sunday.

 

So much of this depends on your firm, and who you work for.  If you're working for organized, reasonable people that care about your sanity for the most part, you might have an easier time of it.  I made a conscious decision to work for the partners that are tough to get along with, who are very demanding and very brilliant and who are absolutely dedicated to their practice.  I'm learning more than I ever thought possible from these people, but at this point Mrs. Uriel knows what it means when I tell her I've been "Michael'ed"* at 5:00 when court lets out, with orders to have a fresh affidavit to respond in court the next morning.

 

Anyway.  I should probably stop prattling about that.  I have friends on Bay Street that bill 1900 hours and roll their eyes at how much I work, so I really am probably the very worst person to give that particular kind of advice.  I'll probably only scare you.  I'm the only person in the office right now, that probably tells you all you need to know.  :)

 

* Names changed to protect my bosses

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102mike103    149

How much would you say your answers translate to big firms outside of Toronto (say, Ottawa)? 

I'm keeping in mind your disclaimers that you are not a mega authority on any specific issue and that your answers revolve around experience in a big firm in Toronto. But I'm curious if your experience working in a firm, or in dealing with firms, that have offices nationwide, means you can say with any degree of confidence that the circumstances you describe are likely similar in big firms in other big cities. 

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