Jump to content
benschnell

Ask a 1L student

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)
On 5/14/2018 at 9:42 PM, awesd said:

I need to know whether I'm Bay street or Bloor st. 

This isn't the best way to look at the recruit in my honest opinion. 

Coming off of the cycle and into my 2L summer job now (won't say where but I'm DT toronto), I will say that a decent amount of Dean's List students don't have 2L jobs or didn't get Bay jobs.

Not trying to sound hateful/negative, just more so advising you not to get too cocky in your grades going into the recruit. Grades matter but there are other just as important factors 

Edited by InsertPseudonymHere

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, InsertPseudonymHere said:

This isn't the best way to look at the recruit in my honest opinion. 

Coming off of the cycle and into my 2L summer job now (won't say where but I'm DT toronto), I will say that a decent amount of Dean's List students don't have 2L jobs or didn't get Bay jobs.

Not trying to sound hateful/negative, just more so advising you not to get too cocky in your grades going into the recruit. Grades matter but there are other just as important factors 

What do you think made the difference between you and and the ones that did not get the jobs? (if you don't mind me asking just worried about my own future haha)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, foreveraloan said:

What do you think made the difference between you and and the ones that did not get the jobs? (if you don't mind me asking just worried about my own future haha)

I think it's hard to pinpoint it exactly. Connections help a ton. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who "know a partner". But there's also just as many if not more who don't.

Being extroverted come recruit time helps a lot as well.

I mean once you get to the OCI, or even in-firm, in my opinion it becomes less about your accomplishments/grades and more about if the firm likes you. Based on that I would say there's an aspect of luck involved, too.

But in sum, grades aren't the be all, end all. There's some B students on Bay after last OCI recruit, there's some B+ students not on Bay.

Edited by InsertPseudonymHere

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/10/2018 at 2:39 PM, InsertPseudonymHere said:

This isn't the best way to look at the recruit in my honest opinion. 

Coming off of the cycle and into my 2L summer job now (won't say where but I'm DT toronto), I will say that a decent amount of Dean's List students don't have 2L jobs or didn't get Bay jobs.

Not trying to sound hateful/negative, just more so advising you not to get too cocky in your grades going into the recruit. Grades matter but there are other just as important factors 

 

That's not true. Every dean list student except one in our cohort was hired through the OCI process. But it's true some students with B or lower averages were also hired. All you can really deduce is that the process is a crapshoot. 

Edited by hmyo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2018 at 8:06 PM, student3416 said:

For those who have clinic experience. In regards to the Business Law clinic and CLS, what is the application process like and what do they look for in a candidate? I found an old post from 2010, but I imagine it may be outdated. Thanks!

 

Current CLS supervisor here (can't speak to biz law). 

Not much has changed since 2010, except now the interviews are one-on-one with the supervisor you would be working with. As to what supervisors look for in a candidate (varies from supervisor to supervisor), its less about accolades and more just how about you would 'jive' with that supervisor (since you work directly under them for the entire year, they want to be able to work with you and not hate you). 

To stand out, I would suggest emphasizing an interest in access to justice, on any experience that shows you work well in a group environment, and that you are comfortable with a client facing experience. For example, part of the reason I got the position is that I used to work in the restaurant industry as a server, so my supervisor knew I would be comfortable dealing with difficult clients without being rude or upsetting him/her further. 

Most importantly, the clinic is looking for people who are going to show up and put in the effort. At the end of the day, these are real clients we are serving with real issues that affect their daily lives. Although it is a teaching clinic, people need to understand the clinic is not the same as a regular law school class. 

I would also like to highlight, that if you apply and don't get a position, don't get discouraged. There are plenty of other opportunities to get involved with the clinic either through upper year classes (litigation practice, cla, etc.), or other aspects of the clinic (Dispute Resolution Centre, Pro Bono Students Canada, etc.). 

If you have any other questions, feel free to shoot me a DM. 

Edited by Rebbox

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 6/11/2018 at 11:11 PM, InsertPseudonymHere said:

I think it's hard to pinpoint it exactly. Connections help a ton. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who "know a partner". But there's also just as many if not more who don't.

Being extroverted come recruit time helps a lot as well.

With respect (and in the interests of assuring incoming 1L students with no parents/family friends who are lawyers) I couldn't disagree more on the "connections help a ton" aspect - speaking both from my experience as a student and on the other side (at a firm). I can't think of many/any big firms that will give you an interview based on knowing a partner, and certainly none that will get you hired simply based on knowing a partner. Many, many partners have absolutely nothing to do with recruitment and don't even know the student recruiter well enough (or have enough pull in the firm) to simply say "interview Joe!".

Honestly, in a perverse way connections can hurt you. With the recruitment process you just have to be charming/inoffensive for a 20 minute OCI and 2-6 hours during in-firms; with long-time connections (such as a family friend) you need to have been charming/inoffensive for the years/decades you've known them. This is not to say that a long-term connection would ever give you a bad review - that would be extreme. However, they may only give you a neutral or lukewarm review. And if the recruiter gets a neutral/lukewarm review from someone that has known you for a long time they're going to move on to try and find someone that the firm is excited to interview and/or hire. They have very little information to go on, very little time to make decisions, and literally dozens of candidates that are perfectly pleasant to be around for 20 minute spurts (the length of most interviews), so anything short of "excited" doesn't just not help you, it hurts you.

For my own anecdotal evidence, I had "connections" prior to the recruitment process and I found them to be utterly useless in terms of helping me get interviews or job offers (I never asked for such a favour, but I made the calls to "ask about the firm" because that seemed like the expected thing to do). This was confirmed once I was in a firm and saw how it happens from the inside (and speaking with friends at other firms). I have no doubt that people have examples of their parent's friend being a partner and setting them up with a job, but I would suggest that (a) that would be extremely rare, and (b) often they are probably assuming the fact that they spoke with a partner meant that the partner helped them out, when in reality they did it on their own merits. One last disclaimer: these rules generally get looser as you go down in firm size.

This isn't to say that meeting with partners/associates (either at networking events or through connections) isn't potentially beneficial, but it's beneficial mostly insofar as it helps you to ask questions that help you better understand what the firm is about and what the people are like. But if you're grabbing coffee with a partner/associate, you have to understand that it essentially counts as an interview - and that means you've extended that 2-6 hours of total time you need to fill with charmingness to 2.5-6.5 hours.

However, I couldn't agree more that being extroverted helps those people out a lot during the process.

 

Edited by TheGazeboEffect

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the other hand, I know for a fact I got OCI's (some of which parlayed into infirms) because of connections. I know because I was told this (obviously they could have lied to me, but hey, I have to accept what I'm told at some point right?)

I don't think there's a one size fit all answer to this. It's going to be your mileage may vary situation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, hmyo said:

On the other hand, I know for a fact I got OCI's (some of which parlayed into infirms) because of connections. I know because I was told this (obviously they could have lied to me, but hey, I have to accept what I'm told at some point right?)

I don't think there's a one size fit all answer to this. It's going to be your mileage may vary situation. 

Yeah there's definitely nuance and exceptions to it (very senior partners probably have this kind of pull), and perhaps my wording was too definitive in the post above (sorry!), but I still think this would be rarer than people realize.

For example, you say you were told that you got an OCI through your connection. I'm guessing that you, through family or whatever, knew a partner and they said they got you an OCI. However, the reality of the situation is likely that they reached at to the firm's recruitment coordinator and put in a good word for you - you still could easily have been not OCI'd and still had to be evaluated on your merits. Because you got the OCI they say that they "got you" the OCI, which makes it seem like they locked it in for you when in reality they did no such thing. It could have gone the other way and in that case they would've said "sorry, I put in a good word for you but no luck". In this sense it's sort of like a confirmation bias or something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/9/2018 at 8:06 PM, student3416 said:

For those who have clinic experience. In regards to the Business Law clinic and CLS, what is the application process like and what do they look for in a candidate? I found an old post from 2010, but I imagine it may be outdated. Thanks!

Was a 1L Caseworker in Bus Law this year; don't know what this year's directors are looking for specifically but they really just want to see if you can do the work and represent yourself well in front of a client. Business experience also not necessary. One of the case workers came from an Arts and Humanities program (Also helps that she's one of the top students in the grade) and did well iirc. 

Also be sure to have a variety of experience, and be likeable when you get an interview.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, TheGazeboEffect said:

Yeah there's definitely nuance and exceptions to it (very senior partners probably have this kind of pull), and perhaps my wording was too definitive in the post above (sorry!), but I still think this would be rarer than people realize.

For example, you say you were told that you got an OCI through your connection. I'm guessing that you, through family or whatever, knew a partner and they said they got you an OCI. However, the reality of the situation is likely that they reached at to the firm's recruitment coordinator and put in a good word for you - you still could easily have been not OCI'd and still had to be evaluated on your merits. Because you got the OCI they say that they "got you" the OCI, which makes it seem like they locked it in for you when in reality they did no such thing. It could have gone the other way and in that case they would've said "sorry, I put in a good word for you but no luck". In this sense it's sort of like a confirmation bias or something.

 

Oh definitely - i don't think there's a science to it at all. I just think, like a law exam, there's one answer, and then there's the in the alternative answer. Just live your best life and see where that takes you. You can only control what you can control. Your marks are what they are, so spend the most time that you can do work on your apps. Qualify of your apps definitely matter. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does anyone know when/how do we inform the admin of which we prefer to take - corporate or ethics - in first year?

Thanks 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Flawgical said:

Does anyone know when/how do we inform the admin of which we prefer to take - corporate or ethics - in first year?

Thanks 

I'm pretty sure we pick it sometime during first semester because no matter which we take it'll be in second semester.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Correct - you will be linked to an online form (kind of like the ones where you submit assignments) and then you choose which one you take. Admin will guide you through the entire process not to worry. There's no pre-selection of courses required for 1L unlike undergrad. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.



  • Recent Posts

    • Exactly. I keep having to remind myself that the index score is moderately reliable at best, and highly speculative at worst.  Does u of a wait till they receive fall grades before extending an offer? Because if that’s the case then I don’t think I’ll receive one (if I do) until January at the earliest.  Stqust, As for your GPA, that’s awesome! I think you’ll be alright based on the applicant profile 
    • I sympathize with you, this situation sucks and is becoming increasingly common as we have more graduates from more schools. If I were in your position I would look at the current year as being paid in experience but looking for something else for next year. I mean, you are probably better off than if you had to do the LPP. On the other hand, I wouldn't personally want to stay with a firm that under-paid me during articling just because they could.  It sounds like you really shot yourself in the foot by being over-eager to find any job and they are taking advantage of you a bit. Why didn't you discuss salary before a firm commitment? But I would want to know a lot more before giving any substantial advice, like what were your credentials like? Were you a top student with good extra-curricular's? What are your finances like? 
    • I went to Osgoode and worked in the admissions department, so I'll give you my thoughts. Based on numbers alone, you have no chance. The people who get into Osgoode with numbers in your range are anomalies and should not be taken as examples (probably less than 10 students out of a class of 290, and most of them were mature students with significant work experience). I say throw in an application to Osgoode but do not hedge your bets on it. Invest your time and energy at other schools like Windsor, that do have a truly holistic process and care more about your personal circumstances and extracurriculars. Osgoode receives 2500+ applications for 290 spots, and there will be people applying with better stats than yours who have similar experiences. I scanned your experiences and it's rather common among the Osgoode student body; this is not to take away from it but to say that it may not be as unique as you think. There were students in my class who came from poverty, who are immigrants, who are racialized minorities, who are LGBTQ, who had family and personal tragedies, who can speak multiple languages (very diverse class), who had significant work and volunteer experiences, etc. Osgoode is one of the most diverse law schools in Canada (along with Windsor and Ottawa). I would also be careful about trying to get an acceptance through a "pity parade" of sorts. Ultimately, Osgoode does want to accept a class of very accomplished individuals, who would benefit the legal profession and bring respect and recognition to the school. Don't be misled by students getting in with lower stats - most of them were mature applicants with 5+ years of work experience under their belt. The average cGPA was a 3.67 and average LSAT score a 162 for the last couple of rounds. To put it into perspective, I had a 160+ LSAT score and 3.7+ GPA and fell into at least four of the "categories" you had listed under your experiences. Good luck and I think you have a shot at other law schools, but not really Osgoode unless you get extremely lucky.  Edit: Reference letters don't make or break an application (unless it's extremely negative). Profreader mentioned this in another thread, but you can't know how strong a reference letter is if you have not read them. Now if you have read them, then it's also subjective based on the person reading the letter. Most law school applicants have good/strong letters in general. 
×