49 replies to this topic

[kiron]

PredictablyDarwin, on 17 February 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

Nature of these discussions in a nutshell: "The school I go to/went to/am going to go to is the best." Belief-dependent realism ftw.

Lol, I never said it was the best (never even said it was better than Osgoode or UBC, just perform better in certain aspects that I think is important). I would just prefer people didn't judge the school so negatively without any research which somehow reflects a bit on you. Just prefer some better credit from lay people for just getting into law school without having to justify why i am going to it when compared to more "prestigious" schools when the more "prestigious" schools may not necessarily be better

[JAGGERS]

Honestly, no one cares where you go to law school. The only difference is that the Bay St firms in Toronto will interview people who have slightly lower grades at U of T, then McGill. Other than that, there's no difference. I don't even know where most of my colleagues went to school.

[JessieL]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Just prefer some better credit from lay people for just getting into law school without having to justify why i am going to it when compared to more "prestigious" schools when the more "prestigious" schools may not necessarily be better

That's just it, kiron, you don't HAVE to; it is your own need for their approval.

None of my friends or family are in law, so no one really knows anything about rankings or how different aspects will affect my personal decision.

You are secure in your decision and that's all that matters.

[TheLastBestWest]

jmcazabon, on 17 February 2012 - 05:30 AM, said:

Sooooo yeah, no where did I say it was a bad move, I suggested that the answer to the question "why do people value calgary so poorly" is because there exists an bias towards central Canada and I think to an extent you would agree with me. Whether that bias is valid or true isn't something I commented on. Furtherstill, I then noted how people feel the need to "rationalize" things, when, and I think it's perfectly valid, to just say "I prefer a certain place," and not have to point to rates of whatever growth thus showing this area is a good area to get into or that a certain life choice is rational. Because you know what, life is, for the most part, not rational. And that's cool.

Also, something about cowboys, tar-sands and stampedes.

I misunderstood your post. I though you were saying that Alberta is somehow automatically worse than Ontario when it comes to law schools. I see now that you were just expressing what you think may be a reason (some) people feel that way. My appologies.

Personally, I think it has more to do with the school thanthe province. Isn't the U of A held in high regard (obv. not as much as U of T or Osgoode)? Calgary is a small, young school with lower admission standards, but I've heard nothing but good things about it. In fact, U of C is my first choice. That's the beauty of Canadian law schools - we don't have a tiered system like the US.

[orion88]

I wouldn't count on that...I fully expect that by the time I graduate Canadian law schools will be tiered to some extent, with schools like TRU opening law schools I think ranking will be inevitable.

[PredictablyDarwin]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Lol, I never said it was the best (never even said it was better than Osgoode or UBC, just perform better in certain aspects that I think is important). I would just prefer people didn't judge the school so negatively without any research which somehow reflects a bit on you. Just prefer some better credit from lay people for just getting into law school without having to justify why i am going to it when compared to more "prestigious" schools when the more "prestigious" schools may not necessarily be better

I wasn't talking specifically about you. It's probably most people on this thread, actually...they just don't come out and say it. Also, people seem to be talking down to you a little bit by telling you to get over it, etc. Just remember these same people likely care just as much about perceived "prestige" as you do. Again, they just don't come out and say it.

Good luck to you.

[kiron]

LikeThat12, on 17 February 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Could you please post the source for mean salary when you get a chance? I'd be interested in looking at those stats. Thanks.

Hi sorry, I guess I should make a few things clear in terms of salary. I was referring to big law salary. I used this forum post as an example for pay cheque in the long run (after tax). Perhaps saying better pay may have been misguided, but definitely not worse (considering less tax in Alberta).

http://lawstudents.c...ary-vs-toronto/

One more thing I would like to add. Unlike Osgoode or more prestigious universities, the tuition rate is much more efficient (well my opinion) for the gains we get (even though Toronto gives better stats, but doesn't justify 2x rate of tuition compared to U of C).

[KidAmnesia]

Getting into law school anywhere in Canada is a significant accomplishment, it places you on a path to an elite profession and gives you a tremendous opportunity to build a rewarding career in any are of law that you are interested in pursuing. This statement needs no qualification. No matter what law school in Canada you got into you should feel fortunate and proud- you have put yourself on a pretty straight path to being in the "1%". The idea that which law school you go to should somehow be a source of pride or shame for you is beyond ridiculous. The institution you studied law at won't make your career. You make your career. I know after a round of LSAT writing and applications we've all been conditioned to worry about what our perceived competition is doing, but it is my humble opinion that it is easier to find success when you remain focused on what you are doing and ignore others people's questionable judgements on where that places you in some hypothetical ranking systems. I would ignore anyone who suggests to you that one choice of school is better than another. You obviously have reasons for making your choice, and you obviously have a history of making choices that lead you to successful outcomes. There is no one best path. That should give you all the confidence you need.

Edited by KidAmnesia, 19 February 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[Phoenix-Wright]

KidAmnesia, on 19 February 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Getting into law school anywhere in Canada is a significant accomplishment, it places you on a path to an elite profession and gives you a tremendous opportunity to build a rewarding career in any are of law that you are interested in pursuing. This statement needs no qualification. No matter what law school in Canada you got into you should feel fortunate and proud

TITCR.

I was just going to post something exactly like that.

[Red]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

I took it from this forum: http://lawstudents.c...ool-statistics/

This is the stats for big law articling rate (sorry, I guess i should have meant big law when referring the articling).


1.Toronto/ 270/ 194/ 1.391752577
2.McGill/ 218/ 170/ 1.282352941
3.Calgary/ 89/ 75/ 1.186666666666667
4..Western/ 192/ 175/ 1.097142857
5.Osgoode/ 307/ 290/ 1.05862069
6.Queens / 162/ 164/ 0.987804878
7.British / 162/ 180/ 0.9
Totals / 2061/ 2514/ 0.819809069
8.Alberta / 127/ 175/ 0.725714286
9.Ottawa / 181/ 260/ 0.696153846
10.Dalhousie/ 110/ 163/ 0.674846626
11.Victoria/ 72/ 109/ 0.660550459
12.Windsor/ 97/ 210/ 0.461904762
13.Saskatchewan/ 36/ 126/ 0.285714286
14.Manitoba/ 23/ 106/ 0.216981132
15.New/ 15/ 82/ 0.182926829

I will get back with the mean income one "i don't remember where I put it"

This in no way, shape, or form indicates that U of Calgary performs better or has a better articling rate than either of UBC or Osgoode. This is only the number of associates/size of class. You're making a huge jump in logic.

If you look at the data on the basis of number of total associates and partners/size of school, then U of C falls below both of these schools, and if you look at it on the basis of number of partners/size of school, then U of C falls somewhere near the bottom of the list. Anyway, my point is that these numbers mean nothing.

Even if ratio of associates could by some leap in logic be used as a indication of articling performance it's only an indication for certain firms, and fails to take into account those who take different paths (for example: medium firms/small firms/boutique firms/government/social justice). It also does not in any way indicate that a U of Calgary student would have an easier time getting a big law article than either a UBC or Osgoode student.

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Regarding career prospects, Calgary beats both UBC and Osgoode in terms of mean salary and articling rate, which for most students who at the end of the day (generalization here) want a good paying salary and secure job to pay off all the student debt.

I've already addressed articling prospects above.

As for salary prospects, the salary data is not an indication of how U of Calgary students fare in terms of salary, rather, it's an indication of the salary rates for the province of Calgary. If a UBC or Osgoode student applies to a Calgary firm they would make the same salary. I can't speak for Osgoode, but I can say that UBC law students place well in Calgary. Furthermore the salary differences between Toronto, Vancouver, and Calgary aren't that big, and most salary comparisons fail to take into account billable hours and other lifestyle differences.

Here is a summary of the most recent provincial salary data: http://www.ivyglobal...s.asp#bc_salary (Source ZSA Legal Recruitment)

Going to U of Calgary does not mean better career prospects than UBC or Osgoode.

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

2. Weaker admission statistics while true since Calgary concentrates on this "holistic" requirement. I don't know how holistic compares to academic hard numbers as Calgary has rejected high stats, but once everyone gets into law school, previous stats and lsat rarely matter. It still doesn't make the school any worse whether class stats has weaker admission stats since after a certain point, an extra few points on the lsat or gpa is hard to gauge success.

If your suggestion that LSAT and GPA does not matter were true, it would follow that Harvard Law students and Cooley Law students should almost be considered equal. Of course, that's not a perfect analogy and there are definitely more factors than just grades/scores that differentiate the students at these schools, but grades/scores are definitely big differentiating factors. That is, grades/scores are not the be all and end all, but they are important. There have been studies that correlate LSAT and GPA with performance in law school. Also, the relative strength of your colleagues is an important consideration in law school. From my experience you learn almost as much from your classmates as your professors and casebooks.

That being said, all Canadian law schools are top tier. The differences between admission stats and the differences between prestige of Canadian law schools are not as big as those in the US. UBC, Osgoode, and U of Calgary are all great schools. You should be proud no matter which school you attend.

Edited by Red, 25 February 2012 - 10:19 PM.

[theiva4]

Though I think some Canadian law schools are more prestigious than others (see UofT, Oz, McGill, UBC) I personally do not think that getting into law school is such a big deal. I really did not care much that I got in and neither did my parents lol. So for me, I really do not care much about this whole prestige business, but I can see how some people would.

[kiron]

Great to hear everyone's inputs!

[davedavedave]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

I would just prefer people didn't judge the school so negatively without any research which somehow reflects a bit on you. Just prefer some better credit from lay people for just getting into law school without having to justify why i am going to it when compared to more "prestigious" schools when the more "prestigious" schools may not necessarily be better

Does anyone really expect people outside of the legal sector to research and become knowledgeable of the Canadian law school system and the differences between the schools? For this reason, the opinions of these people should be meaningless to you, and you should not be afraid to tell them this (instead of being annoyed, you should relish the opportunity to make people think twice about making ignorant judgments).

I'm quite familiar with this situation, having turned down U of T for a "lesser" undergraduate institution. For the most part, I was justifying myself to uneducated people and a simple "Where did you study?" sufficed (unless of course I'm dealing with a hipster/faux-intellectual U of T BA student with a superiority complex, in which case I simply say "I'll take my cappuccino to go" ).

Edited by davedavedave, 10 April 2012 - 10:34 AM.

[kiron]

found some numbers for pay

http://www.lawyerswe...er=44&article=2

[theiva4]

those numbers are a lot better than I thought. Thanks for the link.

[SaulGoodman]

kiron, on 18 April 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

found some numbers for pay

http://www.lawyerswe...er=44&article=2

Can anyone tell me why lawyers at the 25th percentile make 33% more in Edmonton than Calgary? That makes no sense to me.

[Malicious Prosecutor]

SaulGoodman, on 18 April 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

Can anyone tell me why lawyers at the 25th percentile make 33% more in Edmonton than Calgary? That makes no sense to me.

Sheer speculation - lot more government lawyers in Edmonton would bring up the low end.

[Ptolemy]

Isn't this data only based on the salaries of self-employed lawyers?

Edited by Ptolemy, 19 April 2012 - 12:08 PM.

[Mal]

Ptolemy, on 19 April 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

Isn't this data only based on the salaries of self-employed lawyers?

It is not.

[Maven]

the data is from sole practioners and equity partners, not "salaried" lawyers, meaning it doesnt include associates, in-house/government lawyers etc. So those numbers are going to be inflated somewhat.
"For comparison purposes, the commission received a sanitized actuarial report (no names) from the DOJ itemizing, by age, location, and percentile, the annual net professional incomes of more than 20,000 self-employed lawyers (i.e. sole practitioners and equity partners in firms, not salaried lawyers) in each of the five years from 2006 to 2010 (the latest year available)."

my law school's career service website documents on salary/canadian salary guides that have some charts/stats, but they are in pdf so can't post em here.

Edited by Maven, 19 April 2012 - 12:29 PM.