49 replies to this topic

[kiron]

As some of you know, I have chosen to go to Calgary for Law school next year, but got into Osgoode, UBC, Western (so called more prestigious schools). Everytime I tell someone I am going to Calgary instead of Osgoode or UBC, their reaction is "why Calgary, isn't Osgoode or UBC better?" or isn't that more of a "trade" law school as compared to the "academic" one like Osgoode. Why is Calgary viewed so negatively by the average person? Calgary puts better stats than any of those law schools in big firms compared to class size ratio and better articling rate, but gets no credit lol. Everyone seems to view Calgary as last chance U which is quite annoying...

[theiva4]

Its pretty much based on the history of the other law schools. Dont worry about it.

[whereverjustice]

It's because understanding the differences between law schools takes effort, and people are lazy. It's much easier to base your opinions on a ranking.

[kiron]

It just annoying, you work hard to get into law school and then when you proudly tell them which one you are choosing, to your audience it seems like u are settling for less which i find so frustrating that i have to explain my choice! Everytime i also i have to say I got into Osgoode and Western and...but chose not to go to prove that I didn't have the perceived sub-par stats that's associated with Calgary....argh! You would think getting into law school should be a proud thing, not have to second guess yourself based on people's perception of rankings :S

[wilkens]

Sometimes you have to stop caring about what other people think. Anyone that actually goes to law school knows prestige is a concept perpetuated by law school applicants.

[JessieL]

Why do you have to say you got into Osgoode and Western? Stop caring so much what they think.

[jmcazabon]

Because it's in Alberta (sorry, eastern/central Canada bias).

But yeah, legit, it's because I think people have a need to justify things on a "rational" (we ALL supposdely know the hierarchy is supposed to be something) basis when sometimes it comes down to really arbitrary things. By this I mean, for you, placement in big firms and articling is big, but for others they search for social justicey-ness, and others search for nearness to bay st. and others search for a good town to live in, and others search for a certain culture/linguistic area (I was gonna apply to UO, McGill, UNB [certainly different "tiers"] {ps make the link}). It's because we're all caught up in this idea that we need these big justifications that make sense to everyone but sometimes we are swayed by very odd (but very important) small things like (at least for me) "I got a vibe."

conclusion: something about collective desire to find meaning in the inherent absurdity of something as abstract as "the economy,"

but more importantly, I think this thread can have some steam, Im guessing. . . . 3 pages min. Or rather, hoping 3 pages min.

[Purple Monkey]

Welcome to law school, where everyone ranks everything always and inadequacies abound.

[Gronk]

There are I think 16 law schools in Canada, vs 250+ in the US. Seems to me U of T and U of C law would differ in the way Yale and Cornell would. And if these law school chances calculators on the internet can be trusted, it appears that if you can get into any Canadian law school you would probably have had a good chance getting into a top 15 US school as well (although I'm not sure how they consider foreign students).

[Enhance]

I think it depends more on who you are talking to. If you are going to approach any person that lacks knowledge about the law school scene in Canada, the only thing they can judge you by (and yes, people will always judge everything) is on prestige of the school. The general population has no idea what the class sizes, articling rates, clinics available etc. are for any individual law school. What do they default on? Prestige and it's quite easy because most people know about which universities are awesome and which are less so.

It's like our society's fixation on stereotypes -- when people don't know what they are talking about, they grasp to generalizations.

[Hegdis]

Purple Monkey, on 16 February 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Welcome to law school, where everyone ranks everything always and inadequacies abound.

Yup, once you start law school it doesn't stop there. Next it'll be which firms are more prestigious and what field of work is "better". And pretty much no one will have any basis for their opinions aside from what other law students have, in turn, told them. It's like a village myth that gets handed down through generations...

You can drive yourself crazy listening to the uninformed. Understand that they are uninformed or misinformed and give that kind of talk the same weight you give the comments anonymous people make on newspaper stories about politicians, the ones that are all in caps.

[TheLastBestWest]

jmcazabon, on 16 February 2012 - 09:42 PM, said:

Because it's in Alberta (sorry, eastern/central Canada bias).

Yeah, going to law school in the fastest growing, richest, and most economically significant province in the country is definatly a bad move. Doesn't help that the school is in the country's second largest legal market and is Canada's oil & gas law Mecca.

[jmcazabon]

TheLastBestWest, on 17 February 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Yeah, going to law school in the fastest growing, richest, and most economically significant province in the country is definatly a bad move. Doesn't help that the school is in the country's second largest legal market and is Canada's oil & gas law Mecca.

Sooooo yeah, no where did I say it was a bad move, I suggested that the answer to the question "why do people value calgary so poorly" is because there exists an bias towards central Canada and I think to an extent you would agree with me. Whether that bias is valid or true isn't something I commented on. Furtherstill, I then noted how people feel the need to "rationalize" things, when, and I think it's perfectly valid, to just say "I prefer a certain place," and not have to point to rates of whatever growth thus showing this area is a good area to get into or that a certain life choice is rational. Because you know what, life is, for the most part, not rational. And that's cool.

Also, something about cowboys, tar-sands and stampedes.

[zzzzz]

Because people with little else going on derive self-worth from the names on their degrees. And because stupid people say stupid things.

[Gogol]

TheLastBestWest, on 17 February 2012 - 02:52 AM, said:

Yeah, going to law school in the fastest growing, richest, and most economically significant province in the country is definatly a bad move. Doesn't help that the school is in the country's second largest legal market and is Canada's oil & gas law Mecca.

Lol, I still wouldn't touch Alberta with a ten foot pole. You have to remember too, that it's no surprise that the majority of Canadian law school graduates are in or from Ontario.

The point of the quoted poster was that the distinction is entirely arbitrarily grounded in the geography of the law school.

I generally agree with what has been said in this thread.

[QuincyWagstaff]

kiron, on 16 February 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

As some of you know, I have chosen to go to Calgary for Law school next year, but got into Osgoode, UBC, Western (so called more prestigious schools). Everytime I tell someone I am going to Calgary instead of Osgoode or UBC, their reaction is "why Calgary, isn't Osgoode or UBC better?" or isn't that more of a "trade" law school as compared to the "academic" one like Osgoode. Why is Calgary viewed so negatively by the average person? Calgary puts better stats than any of those law schools in big firms compared to class size ratio and better articling rate, but gets no credit lol. Everyone seems to view Calgary as last chance U which is quite annoying...

Sorry OP, but this speaks more to your own insecurities than it does Calgary's lack of lay-prestige. Just manup and do you

[Pyke]

There's a lot of things that contribute to this. Some of them are legitimate, some are not.

I do believe that, if one had perfect knowledge, it would be possible to objectively rate schools on a set of factors and rank them. On many of those factors, controlling for an average applicant, a given distribution would occur whereby some schools would consistently be higher than other schools. Perfect information, of course, does not exist, and as anyone who has taken statistics knows, rules that apply for the average do not necessarily apply for the individual. So this process is always implicitly flawed and problematic.

Does that mean that there is no value in engaging in the process? I don't believe so. To draw a parallel, IQ is a relatively crude method of trying to approximate intelligence and place it on a quantitative scale, but there is still some value in engaging in the comparative process. Even if we disagree, within a range, where someone falls, or, within a range what the number means, we still can use it to help draw conclusions.

In the case of UBC v. Osgoode v. Calgary, it may well be the case that UBC or Osgoode have stronger faculties, career prospects, or students than Calgary. This might be relevant to your decision to attend, or not attend, any of these schools. In this sense, if people know nothing else about you, their general knowledge of these factors might cause them to conclude you should consider other schools. This doesn't mean they are correct. You may have knowledge of additional variables that make Calgary a better choice than UBC or Osgoode, for you.

As to your specific question about why Calgary is viewed more negatively, in a general context, the answer is likely:
(1): Calgary has been around for less time.
(2): Calgary has, on average, weaker admission statistics than UBC or Osgoode.
(3): Calgary has a weaker faculty [subjective opinion].
(4): Calgary places lower on metric comparisons (which may well be of limited weight for you, but it is what it is).

Calgary has the advantage of the boom in Oil & Gas and Natural Resources Law, which has created a substantial legal market in the city. Capital attracts other businesses, and has a halo effect. This has resulted in an improvement in the job market, to be much closer to cities like Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal, than Edmonton, Winnipeg or Ottawa. This boom will attract stronger students, which will in turn build up the reputation of the school, and attract stronger faculty. Over time, Calgary's reputation is likely to increase as a result. However, these things are yet to occur, and until they do, you're likely stuck with people's reactions being what they are.

[kiron]

QuincyWagstaff, on 17 February 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Sorry OP, but this speaks more to your own insecurities than it does Calgary's lack of lay-prestige. Just manup and do you

I have already made up my made. I am more than happy to go to Calgary over the schools despite the other schools appearing more prestigious. I just said it was an annoyance because people view Calgary more negatively than Osgoode or UBC without proper knowledge when Calgary actually has better stats for articling and pay rate (after accounting for provincial tax).

[QuincyWagstaff]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

I have already made up my made. I am more than happy to go to Calgary over the schools despite the other schools appearing more prestigious. I just said it was an annoyance because people view Calgary more negatively than Osgoode or UBC without proper knowledge when Calgary actually has better stats for articling and pay rate (after accounting for provincial tax).

Source?

[Pyke]

QuincyWagstaff, on 17 February 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Source?

I wouldn't be surprised if Calgary has similar articling numbers given the strength of the legal market, and given Alberta has one of the lowest provincial tax rates in the country (if not the lowest), it's obvious in after-tax dollars this will be in your favour. However, this also has consequences in other ways.

Not sure comparing after-tax incomes in the provinces is wise, particularly if you support values that would lead to higher taxation anyway (it's kind of hypocritical to on the one hand argue for marginal tax rates that tax higher income earners higher, and simultaenously choose a law school on the basis that it is in a jurisdiction where the provincial tax is a flat rate). It's for much the same reason I don't believe the political or economic stability [read: foundation] of the province should be a consideration, despite some pretty serious concerns I would have about some jurisdictions in this respect.

[kiron]

Pyke, on 17 February 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

There's a lot of things that contribute to this. Some of them are legitimate, some are not.

I do believe that, if one had perfect knowledge, it would be possible to objectively rate schools on a set of factors and rank them. On many of those factors, controlling for an average applicant, a given distribution would occur whereby some schools would consistently be higher than other schools. Perfect information, of course, does not exist, and as anyone who has taken statistics knows, rules that apply for the average do not necessarily apply for the individual. So this process is always implicitly flawed and problematic.

Does that mean that there is no value in engaging in the process? I don't believe so. To draw a parallel, IQ is a relatively crude method of trying to approximate intelligence and place it on a quantitative scale, but there is still some value in engaging in the comparative process. Even if we disagree, within a range, where someone falls, or, within a range what the number means, we still can use it to help draw conclusions.

In the case of UBC v. Osgoode v. Calgary, it may well be the case that UBC or Osgoode have stronger faculties, career prospects, or students than Calgary. This might be relevant to your decision to attend, or not attend, any of these schools. In this sense, if people know nothing else about you, their general knowledge of these factors might cause them to conclude you should consider other schools. This doesn't mean they are correct. You may have knowledge of additional variables that make Calgary a better choice than UBC or Osgoode, for you.

As to your specific question about why Calgary is viewed more negatively, in a general context, the answer is likely:
(1): Calgary has been around for less time.
(2): Calgary has, on average, weaker admission statistics than UBC or Osgoode.
(3): Calgary has a weaker faculty [subjective opinion].
(4): Calgary places lower on metric comparisons (which may well be of limited weight for you, but it is what it is).

Calgary has the advantage of the boom in Oil & Gas and Natural Resources Law, which has created a substantial legal market in the city. Capital attracts other businesses, and has a halo effect. This has resulted in an improvement in the job market, to be much closer to cities like Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal, than Edmonton, Winnipeg or Ottawa. This boom will attract stronger students, which will in turn build up the reputation of the school, and attract stronger faculty. Over time, Calgary's reputation is likely to increase as a result. However, these things are yet to occur, and until they do, you're likely stuck with people's reactions being what they are.

Yeah, I know some of the reasons why Calgary is viewed negatively, but they do not correlate with significantly better results

1. The time an institution is around has no correlation with actual results. For example, Stanford has been around less than all the Ivy Leagues, but is ranked better than some of them. Yes, time may be tied to alumni base which in turn to more donations and funding to the university, but with the oil boom and government funding plus small class size, Calgary has enough funding to do well for funding to student ratio.

2. Weaker admission statistics while true since Calgary concentrates on this "holistic" requirement. I don't know how holistic compares to academic hard numbers as Calgary has rejected high stats, but once everyone gets into law school, previous stats and lsat rarely matter. It still doesn't make the school any worse whether class stats has weaker admission stats since after a certain point, an extra few points on the lsat or gpa is hard to gauge success.

3. Weaker faculty, I cannot comment on. However, I do know from undergrad experience some of our most prestigious profs were terrible teachers while our not so prestigious professors are the ones I actually learned really well from. I don't care if the premier or an ex MP or judge taught me, I only care whether I can learn the material more efficiently with their teaching, I would rather have a prof who excelled in teaching but crappy research teaching me than hot shot lawyer who teaches just as well or barely better for x dollar amount more from the school (which comes from an extra hike in tuition fees).

4. Well...metrics doesn't relate to the actual quality of the school now...

Regarding career prospects, Calgary beats both UBC and Osgoode in terms of mean salary and articling rate, which for most students who at the end of the day (generalization here) want a good paying salary and secure job to pay off all the student debt. The trend of career prospects will only increase especially with Harper's trend of investing in the oil industry and working on whatever keystone pipeline project. After all, Alberta and the West are going to be net givers in equalizer payments and now Ontario is on the receiving end which gives signs that the economic base of Ontario is stagnant while the West is increasing resulting in more jobs, salary, and articling prospects for students.

[kiron]

Pyke, on 17 February 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Calgary has similar articling numbers given the strength of the legal market, and given Alberta has one of the lowest provincial tax rates in the country (if not the lowest), it's obvious in after-tax dollars this will be in your favour. However, this also has consequences in other ways.

Not sure comparing after-tax incomes in the provinces is wise, particularly if you support values that would lead to higher taxation anyway (it's kind of hypocritical to on the one hand argue for marginal tax rates that tax higher income earners higher, and simultaenously choose a law school on the basis that it is in a jurisdiction where the provincial tax is a flat rate). It's for much the same reason I don't believe the political or economic stability [read: foundation] of the province should be a consideration, despite some pretty serious concerns I would have about some jurisdictions in this respect.

I never said I supported marginal tax rates, I personally believe in flat tax and everyone paying equal % of their income. Furthermore, the services in Alberta has much better funding than Ontario anyways with just a flat tax (if you read the latest budget report released by the Alberta Premier). To argue that the economic or political stability of a region is not important is flawed because economic stability and progress creates jobs that we at the end of the day all want (especially after paying 3 years of tuition and opportunity cost).

[kiron]

QuincyWagstaff, on 17 February 2012 - 12:43 PM, said:

Source?

I took it from this forum: http://lawstudents.c...ool-statistics/

This is the stats for big law articling rate (sorry, I guess i should have meant big law when referring the articling).


1.Toronto/ 270/ 194/ 1.391752577
2.McGill/ 218/ 170/ 1.282352941
3.Calgary/ 89/ 75/ 1.186666666666667
4..Western/ 192/ 175/ 1.097142857
5.Osgoode/ 307/ 290/ 1.05862069
6.Queens / 162/ 164/ 0.987804878
7.British / 162/ 180/ 0.9
Totals / 2061/ 2514/ 0.819809069
8.Alberta / 127/ 175/ 0.725714286
9.Ottawa / 181/ 260/ 0.696153846
10.Dalhousie/ 110/ 163/ 0.674846626
11.Victoria/ 72/ 109/ 0.660550459
12.Windsor/ 97/ 210/ 0.461904762
13.Saskatchewan/ 36/ 126/ 0.285714286
14.Manitoba/ 23/ 106/ 0.216981132
15.New/ 15/ 82/ 0.182926829

I will get back with the mean income one "i don't remember where I put it"

[Pyke]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

I took it from this forum: http://lawstudents.c...ool-statistics/

This is the stats for big law articling rate (sorry, I guess i should have meant big law when referring the articling).


1.Toronto/ 270/ 194/ 1.391752577
2.McGill/ 218/ 170/ 1.282352941
3.Calgary/ 89/ 75/ 1.186666666666667
4..Western/ 192/ 175/ 1.097142857
5.Osgoode/ 307/ 290/ 1.05862069
6.Queens / 162/ 164/ 0.987804878
7.British / 162/ 180/ 0.9
Totals / 2061/ 2514/ 0.819809069
8.Alberta / 127/ 175/ 0.725714286
9.Ottawa / 181/ 260/ 0.696153846
10.Dalhousie/ 110/ 163/ 0.674846626
11.Victoria/ 72/ 109/ 0.660550459
12.Windsor/ 97/ 210/ 0.461904762
13.Saskatchewan/ 36/ 126/ 0.285714286
14.Manitoba/ 23/ 106/ 0.216981132
15.New/ 15/ 82/ 0.182926829

I will get back with the mean income one "i don't remember where I put it"

I'd love to know how "big law" is defined... I also would love to know when 270 became a number connected in any way to U of T?

[whereverjustice]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

This is the stats for big law articling rate (sorry, I guess i should have meant big law when referring the articling).

...But the stats you link are for the number of associates, not the number of articling students.

[LikeThat12]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

...

4. Well...metrics doesn't relate to the actual quality of the school now...

Regarding career prospects, Calgary beats both UBC and Osgoode in terms of mean salary and articling rate, which for most students who at the end of the day (generalization here) want a good paying salary and secure job to pay off all the student debt. The trend of career prospects will only increase especially with Harper's trend of investing in the oil industry and working on whatever keystone pipeline project. After all, Alberta and the West are going to be net givers in equalizer payments and now Ontario is on the receiving end which gives signs that the economic base of Ontario is stagnant while the West is increasing resulting in more jobs, salary, and articling prospects for students.

Could you please post the source for mean salary when you get a chance? I'd be interested in looking at those stats. Thanks.

[QuincyWagstaff]

kiron, on 17 February 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

I took it from this forum: http://lawstudents.c...ool-statistics/

This is the stats for big law articling rate (sorry, I guess i should have meant big law when referring the articling).


1.Toronto/ 270/ 194/ 1.391752577
2.McGill/ 218/ 170/ 1.282352941
3.Calgary/ 89/ 75/ 1.186666666666667
4..Western/ 192/ 175/ 1.097142857
5.Osgoode/ 307/ 290/ 1.05862069
6.Queens / 162/ 164/ 0.987804878
7.British / 162/ 180/ 0.9
Totals / 2061/ 2514/ 0.819809069
8.Alberta / 127/ 175/ 0.725714286
9.Ottawa / 181/ 260/ 0.696153846
10.Dalhousie/ 110/ 163/ 0.674846626
11.Victoria/ 72/ 109/ 0.660550459
12.Windsor/ 97/ 210/ 0.461904762
13.Saskatchewan/ 36/ 126/ 0.285714286
14.Manitoba/ 23/ 106/ 0.216981132
15.New/ 15/ 82/ 0.182926829

I will get back with the mean income one "i don't remember where I put it"

I don't think that this is the "big law articling rate", but rather the # of Associates/size of class? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Regardless, you've obviously found two criteria (the above and the net total average income) on which you believe Calgary is a superior choice for yourself, over UBC and Osgoode. That's great, but I don't see how it follows that the subjective prestige of lay people needs to adjust to this. Osgoode and UBC are more established schools with what most believe to be stronger faculties and academic credentials.

Edited by QuincyWagstaff, 17 February 2012 - 06:04 PM.

[kiron]

QuincyWagstaff, on 17 February 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

I don't think that this is the "big law articling rate", but rather the # of Associates/size of class? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Regardless, you've obviously found two criteria (the above and the net total average income) on which you believe Calgary is a superior choice for yourself, over UBC and Osgoode. That's great, but I don't see how it follows that the subjective prestige of lay people needs to adjust to this. Osgoode and UBC are more established schools with what most believe to be stronger faculties and academic credentials.

I never said the subjective prestige of lay people needs to adjust to this, but in the original post I was annoyed (okay, I admit it sounded like a rant) at the prestige reaction with law school that lay people have and the negative prestige reaction when I said I was going to U of Calgary.

[Radfahrer]

Don't feel the need to justify your situation to everyone. I will have turned down a number of schools with more lay prestige than where I will be ending up, but people who look down on you for your choice are just a minor annoyance. Thankfully, they aren't the people who will be telling you what you can or can't do with your degree. For people close to you who are genuinely interested, take the time and explain to them why, and I'm sure they'll understand.

[PredictablyDarwin]

Nature of these discussions in a nutshell: "The school I go to/went to/am going to go to is the best." Belief-dependent realism ftw.