21 replies to this topic

[This_is_Sparta]

I am trying to decide between U of T and Osgoode. Here is how I see it.

I) Financial aid

Osgoode has offered me a $10,000, non-renewable, scholarship.

As for U of T, I should be eligible for significant needs based funding. Thus, U of T will likely be the wiser financial choice.

2) Career goals

I am particularly interested in Criminal law, and, ideally, I would like to become a Crown/Prosecutor one day. However, I also realize that I am a stupid 0L, and my career goals may easily change once I start law school.

With that said, I worry that U of T's emphasis on Bay st. may disadvantage students who are considering alternative career paths. For instance, I have heard from former U of T students that the CDO is not particularly helpful to those who are considering careers in something other than corporate law.


3) Competition

As we all know, the students at U of T law are statistically superior to those in every other Canadian law school. Thus, to the extent that GPA and LSAT serve as a predictor of success in 1L, I will likely have a much higher chance of ending near the bottom of my class at U of T than at Osgoode.

Also, what happens to U of T students who are near the bottom half of their class? Are they in serious trouble in terms of finding employment?

Thank you.

Edited by This_is_Sparta, 09 February 2012 - 10:14 PM.

[tng11]

Our situations are somewhat different, for me it was Osgoode ended up being the much better financial decision over the UofT. One thing you might be forgetting is that Osgoode does have a bursary program, and if you qualify for financial aid at UofT, I would imagine you would get something from Osgoode on top of your existing scholarship.

I can't give you advice on CDOs, but what I've been told many times before is that going to a school on what you perceive to be its focus/not foci can be misleading at times. As long as there are certain courses available and clinics that match your interests, that school is still fine for your desired specialty even if the majority of your peers aren't following that path. UofT or Osgoode should give you plenty of opportunities whether you end up wanting to be in Criminal or you change your mind to Bay St., where the former is the better school. If there's something that sticks out to you (e.g. the Innocence Project at Osgoode), compare what UofT offers and weigh the financial consequences alongside. I highly doubt you would be the only one at UofT interested in criminal, after all, not nearly all students end up on Bay St.

And as for the level of competition, I wouldn't worry about that either. There's a reason why Bay St. firms hire deeper into the class, because they're well aware that the students are stronger academically. I think if you were good enough to get into both schools and don't suddenly forget your good study habits (given your astounding GPA), you have just as good as a chance as your higher LSAT peers at succeeding, because we're really just talking about a matter of 3 to 5 questions on a 3 hour exam that's differentiating your LSAT scores.

[This_is_Sparta]

Thank you for your advice and kind works, Tng.

Hope to see you at Oz's welcome day.

[BetterCallSaul]

tng11, on 09 February 2012 - 10:43 PM, said:

I highly doubt you would be the only one at UofT interested in criminal, after all, not nearly all students end up on Bay St.

Users have this forum have previously noted (albeit anecdotally) that Osgoode students tend to be less focused on biglaw than UofT students. If you're interested in other avenues of the profession, perhaps an important consideration might be the % of your future classmates that will share the same interests, ambitions, etc.

But as a fellow 0L, I'm not really in a position to comment on the disposition of either school. Maybe Whereverjustice, Uriel, Pyke or Gogol can chyme in?

[tng11]

BetterCallSaul, on 10 February 2012 - 06:15 AM, said:

Users have this forum have previously noted (albeit anecdotally) that Osgoode students tend to be less focused on biglaw than UofT students. If you're interested in other avenues of the profession, perhaps an important consideration might be the % of your future classmates that will share the same interests, ambitions, etc.

But as a fellow 0L, I'm not really in a position to comment on the disposition of either school. Maybe Whereverjustice, Uriel, Pyke or Gogol can chyme in?

While that's true, I do recall the OCI numbers at Osgoode were something like 220-240 out of 290 over the past few years. So there ends up being roughly 80% or so every year that goes for a Bay St. job in the end. So the number of students that are not interested in Bay St. is a higher number of students, and one will more likely find more people individuals interested in criminal law, which may accordingly lead to stronger network in the future. I've been told that some see OCI as an golden opportunity to get a job mixed in with some peer pressure, so you end up having a subset of students who actually have zero interest in Bay St. applying anyways. So the population actually interested in/gunning for Bay St. might be substantially less than the 220-240 figure. However, who's to say this isn't the case at UofT, the so-called "corporate" culture there might just as well be contagious like it is everywhere else.

But I do see your point. Maybe the OP can build a stronger network in criminal law (if he/she is indeed interested in that path) by going to a school where more people are interested in the same field (i.e. Osgoode.) But I would hope that one's network isn't constrained to their own school, and that once you're out in the field, it's not like there are cliques that form between schools.

[wilkens]

This_is_Sparta, on 09 February 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

I am trying to decide between U of T and Osgoode. Here is how I see it.

I) Financial aid

Osgoode has offered me a $10,000, non-renewable, scholarship.

As for U of T, I should be eligible for significant needs based funding. Thus, U of T will likely be the wiser financial choice.

2) Career goals

I am particularly interested in Criminal law, and, ideally, I would like to become a Crown/Prosecutor one day. However, I also realize that I am a stupid 0L, and my career goals may easily change once I start law school.

With that said, I worry that U of T's emphasis on Bay st. may disadvantage students who are considering alternative career paths. For instance, I have heard from former U of T students that the CDO is not particularly helpful to those who are considering careers in something other than corporate law.


3) Competition

As we all know, the students at U of T law are statistically superior to those in every other Canadian law school. Thus, to the extent that GPA and LSAT serve as a predictor of success in 1L, I will likely have a much higher chance of ending near the bottom of my class at U of T than at Osgoode.

Also, what happens to U of T students who are near the bottom half of their class? Are they in serious trouble in terms of finding employment?

Thank you.

A couple things in response:

1) Financial Aid

U of T's financial aid is need-based and could end up being more than the $10k scholarship Osgoode offered you. But it is hard to know in advance the amount. I believe you can get a pre-assessment if you mail in your application by a certain date. Why don't you do that so you can get a clearer picture of the monetary situation?

2) Career goals

All this talk about going to certain schools to practice in certain areas of law after is nonsense (in my opinion). You can do whatever you want coming out of any law school in Canada. That being said, if interested in working on Bay St, U of T might give you a slight leg up. But in regards to other areas the school you go to probably won't make a difference. Your experiences and grades will be the most important thing - by far.

What I would take into consideration is what clinic opportunities each school offers if you are dead set on criminal law. You will want to get experience in a courtroom. U of T has Downtown Legal Services, which does some criminal stuff so you have the opportunity to represent actual clients and get in a court room. Osgoode has CLASP and a criminal law intensive program.

In regards to course offerings related to criminal law, both schools basically offer the same variety of courses. But I don't go to Osgoode so maybe someone who goes there wants to chime in.

The CDO at any school simply posts jobs and holds workshops. I think people have a misperception about what they do exactly. Many smaller firms and sole-practicioners don't post jobs with a school's career office. If you want a job there you have to hustle to get it no matter what school you go to. I also assure you that every school will have the same postings for jobs with the government.

3) Competition

Law school is a whole new ball game. Just because someone has a PhD or a masters degree doesn't mean that they are going to do well. Everyone starts law school on basically an equal footing. Prior grades and LSAT do not predict anything. If you work smart and hard in law school you will do just fine no matter where you go.

You will not necessairily do worse by going to a school with people who are "academically stronger" as you put it. There are plenty of Bs and B+s to go around! It will be hard to get an A but probably equally hard to get a C.

My final comment probably applies to a lot of potential law students. Right now you have tunnel vision and are not able to see your life beyond even getting into law school but you will be fine in the end and wind up with the career you want. Your experiences in life and in law school matter so much more than what school you go to or how good your grades are. For many of you applying to law school what you thought about certain areas of law will change as you learn more about what the law actually is. You may become interested in pursuing an area that you never thought you would have.

[wilkens]

tng11, on 10 February 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

While that's true, I do recall the OCI numbers at Osgoode were something like 220-240 out of 290 over the past few years. So there ends up being roughly 80% or so every year that goes for a Bay St. job in the end. So the number of students that are not interested in Bay St. is a higher number of students, and one will more likely find more people individuals interested in criminal law, which may accordingly lead to stronger network in the future. I've been told that some see OCI as an golden opportunity to get a job mixed in with some peer pressure, so you end up having a subset of students who actually have zero interest in Bay St. applying anyways. So the population actually interested in/gunning for Bay St. might be substantially less than the 220-240 figure. However, who's to say this isn't the case at UofT, the so-called "corporate" culture there might just as well be contagious like it is everywhere else.

But I do see your point. Maybe the OP can build a stronger network in criminal law (if he/she is indeed interested in that path) by going to a school where more people are interested in the same field (i.e. Osgoode.) But I would hope that one's network isn't constrained to their own school, and that once you're out in the field, it's not like there are cliques that form between schools.

I really believe that you pre-law school guys are over analyzing all this. I go to law school and don't know about any of these numbers or anything.

I think many students apply to OCIs because of how easy it is to do it. The job postings are given to you and all you have to do is send your application package. You could wind up getting a job with a larger firm by simply spending half an hour on a cover letter and resume. Whereas, with other kinds of opportunities at smaller firms you will have to seek them out. And so there is a lot more leg work on your part.

Not sure if I agree with you about the corporate culture at U of T. Honestly, many many people at the law school are politically on the left. I think the corporate reputation comes from the fact that many wind up working at larger firms simply because these firm hire many people as well as pay a lot of money. It is hard to resist the opportunity to make good money after living the poor student lifestyle for many years no matter what your political beliefs were going into law school or are even during or after.

[whereverjustice]

This_is_Sparta, on 09 February 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

Also, what happens to U of T students who are near the bottom half of their class? Are they in serious trouble in terms of finding employment?

Bear in mind that just about everyone at every law school in Ontario* gets an articling position.** If we were in a situation where 50% of students at any given law school were struggling to find work, there would be full-on panic mode in the industry. We're not there. Yet.

I don't think it's good strategy to look for a 'statistically weaker' school in the hope that it will be easier to get higher grades. Insofar as law schools admit people for reasons other than LSAT/GPA, they're looking for things that are going to be indicative of ability to succeed in law school.*** Would you be better off competing with a guy who was 3.96/175 and a BA, or a 3.7/162 and a PhD? Or a high-school dropout who has spent the last twelve years building her own (large and successful) business? I don't know the answer to that.

Neither school will be an obstacle to a career in criminal law. Heck, I'd imagine that crim-oriented people wind up with way more interesting clinical experiences than the rest of us.

Osgoode also has a (needs-based) bursary program, in addition to entrance scholarships like the one you've been offered. If you filled out the financial profile with your application, you should get 'early bursary notification'. Did your receive a bursary estimate? If not, you might want to call Penny Spence (head of Student Financial Services, (416)736-2100 x 58178) and check to see whether you might get any additional funding that way.

Anyway, I see you're planning to go to Osgoode's Welcome Day. That's good - you'll get a chance to talk to some students and faculty and get a better sense of the place. You might want to ask them some of the same questions you've had here.

ETA: I do think BetterCallSaul makes a good point about your classmates. Once you're in law school, you stop seeing them as competition and start seeing them as friends/colleagues/comrades. 1L is a tough experience, and like all tough experiences it creates a bond between people who endure it together So when you visit the schools, talk to the students, visit any club/organization displays, and think about where you feel most 'at home' among the other students.

*Ottawa's a little weird with their dual programs and whatnot so I'm not so sure about them
**There's no school-by-school data for post-Call employment.
***Aside from equity-based admissions categories, etc.

Edited by whereverjustice, 10 February 2012 - 07:35 AM.
thought on BCS's advise

[BetterCallSaul]

whereverjustice, on 10 February 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Osgoode also has a (needs-based) bursary program, in addition to entrance scholarships like the one you've been offered. If you filled out the financial profile with your application, you should get 'early bursary notification'. Did your receive a bursary estimate? If not, you might want to call Penny Spence (head of Student Financial Services, (416)736-2100 x 58178) and check to see whether you might get any additional funding that way.

Sidebar: I spoke with Student Financial Services earlier this week and was informed that these notifications should be released 'shortly'.

[Mal]

Personally, I'd go to UofT over Osgoode if it was cheaper without hesitating. UofT is in much nicer neighbourhood, and is a slightly better school overall. I don't see this as a difficult question.

If Osgoode was cheaper it'd be a hard decision and I'd visit both.

[This_is_Sparta]

wilkens, on 10 February 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

A couple things in response:

1) Financial Aid

U of T's financial aid is need-based and could end up being more than the $10k scholarship Osgoode offered you. But it is hard to know in advance the amount. I believe you can get a pre-assessment if you mail in your application by a certain date. Why don't you do that so you can get a clearer picture of the monetary situation?

2) Career goals

All this talk about going to certain schools to practice in certain areas of law after is nonsense (in my opinion). You can do whatever you want coming out of any law school in Canada. That being said, if interested in working on Bay St, U of T might give you a slight leg up. But in regards to other areas the school you go to probably won't make a difference. Your experiences and grades will be the most important thing - by far.

What I would take into consideration is what clinic opportunities each school offers if you are dead set on criminal law. You will want to get experience in a courtroom. U of T has Downtown Legal Services, which does some criminal stuff so you have the opportunity to represent actual clients and get in a court room. Osgoode has CLASP and a criminal law intensive program.

In regards to course offerings related to criminal law, both schools basically offer the same variety of courses. But I don't go to Osgoode so maybe someone who goes there wants to chime in.

The CDO at any school simply posts jobs and holds workshops. I think people have a misperception about what they do exactly. Many smaller firms and sole-practicioners don't post jobs with a school's career office. If you want a job there you have to hustle to get it no matter what school you go to. I also assure you that every school will have the same postings for jobs with the government.

3) Competition

Law school is a whole new ball game. Just because someone has a PhD or a masters degree doesn't mean that they are going to do well. Everyone starts law school on basically an equal footing. Prior grades and LSAT do not predict anything. If you work smart and hard in law school you will do just fine no matter where you go.

You will not necessairily do worse by going to a school with people who are "academically stronger" as you put it. There are plenty of Bs and B+s to go around! It will be hard to get an A but probably equally hard to get a C.

My final comment probably applies to a lot of potential law students. Right now you have tunnel vision and are not able to see your life beyond even getting into law school but you will be fine in the end and wind up with the career you want. Your experiences in life and in law school matter so much more than what school you go to or how good your grades are. For many of you applying to law school what you thought about certain areas of law will change as you learn more about what the law actually is. You may become interested in pursuing an area that you never thought you would have.

1. Yes, good point. I am just waiting on my acceptance package, as it was mailed out yesterday. However, given my financial circumstances, I expect significant needs based funding from U of T - far more than the 10k scholarship presented by Oz.

2. Thank you; this is good to know.

3. I couldn't agree more. And this is why I am not choosing Osgoode simply because "I want to do criminal law". It is pretty likely that my career goals can, and will, change once I start law school.

I really appreciate your response. Thank you.

[This_is_Sparta]

whereverjustice, on 10 February 2012 - 07:28 AM, said:

Bear in mind that just about everyone at every law school in Ontario* gets an articling position.** If we were in a situation where 50% of students at any given law school were struggling to find work, there would be full-on panic mode in the industry. We're not there. Yet.

I don't think it's good strategy to look for a 'statistically weaker' school in the hope that it will be easier to get higher grades. Insofar as law schools admit people for reasons other than LSAT/GPA, they're looking for things that are going to be indicative of ability to succeed in law school.*** Would you be better off competing with a guy who was 3.96/175 and a BA, or a 3.7/162 and a PhD? Or a high-school dropout who has spent the last twelve years building her own (large and successful) business? I don't know the answer to that.

Neither school will be an obstacle to a career in criminal law. Heck, I'd imagine that crim-oriented people wind up with way more interesting clinical experiences than the rest of us.

Osgoode also has a (needs-based) bursary program, in addition to entrance scholarships like the one you've been offered. If you filled out the financial profile with your application, you should get 'early bursary notification'. Did your receive a bursary estimate? If not, you might want to call Penny Spence (head of Student Financial Services, (416)736-2100 x 58178) and check to see whether you might get any additional funding that way.

Anyway, I see you're planning to go to Osgoode's Welcome Day. That's good - you'll get a chance to talk to some students and faculty and get a better sense of the place. You might want to ask them some of the same questions you've had here.

ETA: I do think BetterCallSaul makes a good point about your classmates. Once you're in law school, you stop seeing them as competition and start seeing them as friends/colleagues/comrades. 1L is a tough experience, and like all tough experiences it creates a bond between people who endure it together So when you visit the schools, talk to the students, visit any club/organization displays, and think about where you feel most 'at home' among the other students.

*Ottawa's a little weird with their dual programs and whatnot so I'm not so sure about them
**There's no school-by-school data for post-Call employment.
***Aside from equity-based admissions categories, etc.

Thanks for your response. I spoke with Ms. Spence, and she told me that I am able to apply for bursaries during October/November of my first year at Oz. She did not mention anything about an "early bursary notification"...

Edited by This_is_Sparta, 10 February 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Pyke]

Mal, on 10 February 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

Personally, I'd go to UofT over Osgoode if it was cheaper without hesitating. UofT is in much nicer neighbourhood, and is a slightly better school overall. I don't see this as a difficult question.

If Osgoode was cheaper it'd be a hard decision and I'd visit both.

This.

U of T simply gives you more options, places deeper than any other school, and is at least above average in pretty much any area of law. Queens and Osgoode arguably have slightly stronger Criminal specialties, but I mean, it's not like their course offerings differ that much from U of T, and the DLS program makes up for the lack of CLAP. I do think U of T losing Michael Code to the bench was a significant loss for U of T's criminal law program, but I believe Kent Roach is still around, and he's pretty good. Osgoode has a handful of great legal scholars, but most of them are Constitutional Law.... which is not a bad thing for a Criminal Lawyer.

I don't know. For what you want to do, I'd probably break it down like this:

Criminal Faculty: Slight Edge Osgoode
Related to Criminal Faculty: Slight Edge Osgoode
Overall Faculty: Edge to Toronto

Criminal Clinics: Slight Edge Osgoode
Related Clinics: Slight Edge Toronto
Overall Clinics: Slight Edge Toronto

Course Work: Equal

Peers: Edge Toronto

Job Opportunities Criminal: Probably Equal
Job Opportunities Overall: Edge Toronto

On the basis of the above, if U of T is cheaper, I'd probably go with Toronto... but then, I did go to Toronto, so I'm biased.

[zzzzz]

If UofT is actually cheaper for you than Osgoode, then go to UofT...hands down. As you know, UofT is a great school whereas Osgoode has been losing a lot of its shine lately (probably because of the explosion in its class size). And as others have mentioned, downtown toronto is much, much nicer than york's neighbourhood. The only question is whether UofT will actually be cheaper.

[whereverjustice]

zzzzz, on 11 February 2012 - 07:43 AM, said:

Osgoode has been losing a lot of its shine lately (probably because of the explosion in its class size).

I'm not sure in what sense Osgoode is "losing its shine". Certainly over the last five years the JD program there has been offering 'more and better' (particularly on the clinical/experiential programs side). So I don't understand what i is that you are suggesting has been lost, and how/why - least of all this idea of an "explosion of class size".

I would venture that, in recent years, we've seen people who (for whatever reason) would have thought "OSGOODE OR UT OR MCGILL OR BUST" instead realizing that, actually, UWO and Calgary and UBC (among others) have pretty excellent law schools. And that's a good thing for everyone as far as I'm concerned.

[zzzzz]

whereverjustice, on 11 February 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

I'm not sure in what sense Osgoode is "losing its shine". Certainly over the last five years the JD program there has been offering 'more and better' (particularly on the clinical/experiential programs side). So I don't understand what i is that you are suggesting has been lost, and how/why - least of all this idea of an "explosion of class size".

I would venture that, in recent years, we've seen people who (for whatever reason) would have thought "OSGOODE OR UT OR MCGILL OR BUST" instead realizing that, actually, UWO and Calgary and UBC (among others) have pretty excellent law schools. And that's a good thing for everyone as far as I'm concerned.

For some reason I thought Osgoode had recently increased their class size by a whole wack. Apparently I was wrong, although that statement was only meant to explain why the school has, in the eyes of some, "lost its shine". When i said "losing its shine", I was referring to its decreasing Bay St placement rates, not because I consider Bay St placements to be indicative of qualify of school, but because many do. And because Osgoode's placement rates were, as far as I know, why Osgoode was argued as being so great. In 2011, Osgoode had 16% fewer jobs through OCIs than in 2010. The only school that had a larger decrease was Windsor which had a 35% decrease. Ottawa had a 16% decrease as well. In addition, Osgoode moved down to third place in placement rates, placing 10% fewer of its students in jobs through OCIs. than Western which moved into second place behind UofT

Apparently I was mistaken that Osgoode's class size had increased. But that just leaves me wondering: why is Osgoode placing so much worse than before?

[whereverjustice]

zzzzz, on 11 February 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

But that just leaves me wondering: why is Osgoode placing so much worse than before?

When it comes to the class size increase, you were probably thinking of Ottawa, which bumped up its class size pretty steeply after the lost-application debacle a few years ago.

As for the OCI numbers? It's a good question. I'm hesitant to read too much into it, because in the previous year, more Osgoode students got OCI jobs than ever before. Did something disastrous happen to Osgoode's reputation in a single recruiting cycle? Seems doubtful. There are quite a few things that can contribute to this. Maybe we're seeing the effects of the holistic admissions policy (last year's OCI seekers would have been the second class admitted under the new system), with fewer students seeking a Bay Street career. Or maybe random variation. Who knows?

Man, we need one of them longitudinal studies in this profession. That would be so cool.

ETA: I'll point out here, because I think it's good to be up front about these things, that I strongly suspect that the quality of (traditional, undergraduate) instruction in Ontario law schools is pretty much uniform.

Edited by whereverjustice, 11 February 2012 - 08:55 AM.
btw i'm something of a radical

[zzzzz]

whereverjustice, on 11 February 2012 - 08:52 AM, said:

When it comes to the class size increase, you were probably thinking of Ottawa, which bumped up its class size pretty steeply after the lost-application debacle a few years ago.

As for the OCI numbers? It's a good question. I'm hesitant to read too much into it, because in the previous year, more Osgoode students got OCI jobs than ever before. Did something disastrous happen to Osgoode's reputation in a single recruiting cycle? Seems doubtful. There are quite a few things that can contribute to this. Maybe we're seeing the effects of the holistic admissions policy (last year's OCI seekers would have been the second class admitted under the new system), with fewer students seeking a Bay Street career. Or maybe random variation. Who knows?

Man, we need one of them longitudinal studies in this profession. That would be so cool.

ETA: I'll point out here, because I think it's good to be up front about these things, that I strongly suspect that the quality of (traditional, undergraduate) instruction in Ontario law schools is pretty much uniform.

I can't disagree with any of this. I agree that OCI numbers are a poor indication of quality of school. My bringing them up was only directed at those who bring them up in an attempt to equate bay st placements with quality.

[JudgeDredd]

Osgoode is stacked with criminal opporuntunities and has a renowned faculty in that area

- numerous courses and lots of specialized seminar classes in crim
-different clinic programs you can choose from that UofT doesnt have such as the criminal intensive, and the innocence project
- CLASP (equavilent to DLS), you can be criminal caseworker in 1st year, and a criminal division leader in second year (you can work through your summer in 1L and throughout 2L at the clinic)
- lots of informal opportunities come up through our OPIR program, volunteering at crown attorney's office, doing crim policy work, etc.

both UofT and Osgoode are excellent schools, i have friends that choose osgoode over UofT, so don't think that no one does it.

Edited by JudgeDredd, 11 February 2012 - 10:02 AM.

[This_is_Sparta]

Thanks, JD. That was helpful

[tng11]

JudgeDredd, on 11 February 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

both UofT and Osgoode are excellent schools, i have friends that choose osgoode over UofT, so don't think that no one does it.

I just did it.

As I told someone else on here - I might regret it if I think "Blakes or bust" at OCIs. Otherwise, I'm not going to look back.

[theiva4]

tng11, on 11 February 2012 - 03:22 PM, said:

I just did it.

As I told someone else on here - I might regret it if I think "Blakes or bust" at OCIs. Otherwise, I'm not going to look back.

Ive heard rumours of such things happening but I never knew it was true.