17 replies to this topic

[redlead]

Situation:

Likely will have to live in either Vancouver or Toronto because of partner's circumstances.
Accepted to UBC, close to full ride scholarship, but currently living 2 hours north of Toronto and the cost of moving out to Vancouver will be huge.
Accepted to U of T, financial aid not yet released, but given my profile and need I'm guessing a 1/3-2/3 tuition bursary/interest-free loan.
Applied to Oz but have withdrawn my application.

Future aspirations:

MAG - would love to be Crown Attorney/Counsel one day (criminal prosecution).
Would also really enjoy (I think, impossible to be sure) working for another provincial ministry, particularly Ministries of the Environment or Natural Resources (have worked for MNR in Ontario).

Top priorities (no particular order):

1 - Employability/availability of positions;
2 - Course and clinic offerings (I have investigated this as much as I can but first hand experiences are better than course calendars);
3 - The prospective city as a place to live; and
4 - Financial costs.

I am really grateful and humbled to be in a position to choose between these two schools. Any feedback is helpful.

[Malicious Prosecutor]

Both are fine schools. Governments generally don't actively recruit outside of their own province. So the question is where do you want to live/practice after graduating. If it's BC, go to UBC, if it's Ontario, U of T.

By the way, most ministries to not have their own staff lawyers. Instead you work for the Justice department (civil) and provide legal advice to all other departments.

[redlead]

Thanks Malicious Prosecutor. I know that the MNR in Ontario, at least, does have a legal services dept with 22 lawyers where they hire one articling student per year. I can't say I think it's terribly likely that I would get one of those jobs though.

[Stupor]

How "huge" can your moving expenses be? I'm going to do the TO-Van move too, and I don't expect to spend more than ~$1500 on everything. Granted, I'm a single student with the "luxury" of not having much stuff to ship, but even for a couple, the moving expenses should be insignificant compared to the overall cost of law school, no?

Edited by Stupor, 09 February 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[whereverjustice]

Malicious Prosecutor, on 09 February 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

By the way, most ministries to not have their own staff lawyers. Instead you work for the Justice department (civil) and provide legal advice to all other departments.

In Ontario, each Ministry* has its own Legal Services Branch. The branch has a dual reporting relationship to both the MAG Legal Services Division and wherever they fall in the Ministry's org chart. Lawyers and articling students* are hired to particular legal services branches (or to MAG's other divisions).
*With a few exceptions

[Malicious Prosecutor]

Stupor, on 09 February 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

How "huge" can your moving expenses be? I'm going to do the TO-Van move too, and I don't expect to spend more than ~$1500 on everything. Granted, I'm a single student with the "luxury" of not having much stuff to ship, but even for a couple, the moving expenses should be insignificant compared to the overall cost of law school, no?

Well that's the thing, isn't it.

I recently did a city to city move and the movers along charged $10k. Adn that was a lot less distance than TO-Van.

[QuincyWagstaff]

Why wouldn't you consider OZ? Financial considerations seem to be significant and you would have been likely offered significant $. How much time have you spent in Vancouver and the lower mainland? If your not fairly certain you want to settle here, U of T seems to be a better choice.

[West Coast Express]

There are surprisingly few jobs available with the BC MAG available straight out of law school - I think the email we got the other day said there were about 7 summer positions available (some UBC'er please correct me if I'm wrong). From what I understand, these students must then reapply for articling positions after the summer along with everyone else, although many of this year's summers were re-hired for what it's worth. This is a pretty big deal - the students who have their hearts set on summering/articling with the government really only have the provincial MAG and federal DOJ at which they can apply. And from my experience, the students who get these jobs are quite accomplished - the positions are just as hotly contested (perhaps moreso) than big law. I don't say this to scare you, but on the chance (and it's a better than 50/50 chance) that you have to be more flexible on summering/articling.

Really, the big thing I'd be looking at is the amount of debt you'll go into. That's the only thing you can really control at this stage. Articling and junior associate salaries in government are decent, but are quite a bit lower than what the big firms offer. If U of T doesn't offer you some significant $$, I'd go to UBC. It's a really great school, costs half the tuition of U of T, and has some awesome clinical programs that you can gain criminal law experience with.

[Malicious Prosecutor]

Slightly off-topic, but most governments have a fairly limited number of positions for articling and first year lawyers, but are much more open to hiring from outside. I would dare say that the slim majority of prosecutors have not spent their entire career here.

[redlead]

Thanks for all the thoughtful feedback. I'm definitely more than willing to consider other options for articling and beginning my career. Of course, I hope to have a future as a prosecutor but I'm aware that the likelihood of that (at least, of starting there) is extremely low. If I get offered an articling position anywhere that would be great. Quincy - each school has it's own admissions standards, and unfortunately I was not among the candidates who were competitive for a scholarship from Osgoode. Also, I've always loved the idea of U of T and I believe I have enough financial need that I will be able to apply for aid each year. Re the cost of moving, you're right in saying that it's likely nowhere near the cost of law school, but with a partner, a home full of furniture, and a couple of pets [MFing pets ], it will be considerable.

[kathryndan]

Okay, forgive my ignorance but I just have to ask: If you want to do criminal law, why not Queens? Am I mistaken in thinking Queens is really good for that?

EDIT - Oops. Missed the part about the SO. Would you still be debating between those two specific schools if you could go wherever you wanted?

Edited by kathryndan, 09 February 2012 - 02:48 PM.

[QuincyWagstaff]

That's surprising. Glad I didn't want to practice in Toronto! Sounds like U of T is the best fit if you're eligible for substantial need-based aid.

Edited by QuincyWagstaff, 09 February 2012 - 02:52 PM.

[BetterCallSaul]

Your third priority seems highly subjective.. Have you ever visited Vancouver before?

[redlead]

I think I would consider other schools if I had the ability to go wherever but it could very well have come down to U of T and UBC on its own. They're great schools and I love Vancouver (which I have visited twice). Saul, you're right about that being subjective and perhaps not well worded but any experiences or advice is always welcome.

[bumblebee]

Go to school in the city/province in which you want to live and work for the rest of your life.

For what it's worth, provincial government ministries and agencies hire articling students every year. While they are not super easy to get they are also in no way the most competative positions. Sometimes they even hire well after the usual articling hiring period. So if I were you I would not at all assume that these jobs are somehow unrealistic. My experience is in Ontario.

Secondly, since you haven't even started law school yet you by definition do not actually know what kind of law you want to practice. As I said, considering on which side of the country you want to live for the rest of your life (and what your family wants) might be the bigger factor.

[Red]

1. Both are the top schools in their respective markets. Both schools place well in other markets as well. That being said, at U of T you have more opportunities to network with Toronto firms, and at UBC you have more opportunities to network with Vancouver firms.

2. Both schools offer a wide selection of courses. I can't speak for U of T's clinics (I'm sure someone else can), but I do know that UBC has LSLAP Clinics throughout Vancouver and even allows you to handle cases under the guidance of supervising lawyers in 1L. This video should give you some idea:

3. Both Toronto and Vancouver are great cities. Toronto has a better night life, but Vancouver has better weather and is much more scenic. Vancouver is more expensive, but is consistently rated as one of the top places to live. I'm sure you can find more comparisons between the two cities by googling "Toronto vs. Vancouver"

4. Financially, I would say UBC is definitely the better choice. Tuition is much cheaper ($10,338 vs. $25,389) , and you have close to a full ride scholarship. Might not be worth it to move all your furniture cross country though.

[QuincyWagstaff]

I assume this thread was a hypothetical, considering the OP recieved a "close to full ride scholarship" at UBC months before the actual scholarship decisions were made. Out of curiosity, did the money come through, Redlead?

Edited by QuincyWagstaff, 24 March 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[boredatwork]

Quincy, you might want to see a doctor about your shoulder before too long. That enormous chip must be causing some pain.