22 replies to this topic

[muffins]

From what I've read here, it seems that consensus is that it is wise to go to law school where you want to work afterwards. Where I am from, a small town in Ontario, the dichotomy has always been that those who did not pursue institutional education (university/college) went out West to work. On the other side of University, with good work experience and trilingual (incl. french) going out West seems like a good option. The reality is, there do not seem to be any decent jobs here that are attainable. I see them advertised all the time, but I do not even get an interview. I am applying to entry level "professional" jobs that I am more than qualified for.

This environment in Ontario is making a decision between UofC and Western very difficult; I have been accepted to both. I understand that the market for lawyers is different than the general labour market, but surely the general economy must weigh on the prospects for new law grads. Ontario's economy seems to be a disaster anywhere outside of some small pockets of affluence, mostly in Toronto. Law school is an extraordinarily large investment for anyone, especially those of us in our early 20s. I want to make a wise decision and be a in a place where I have reasonable opportunities to be rewarded for my investment and hard work. The future of Canada is clearly in Western Canada. It is where the country's population and economy is growing. The basis for that economy, resources, cannot be picked-up and moved like a Caterpillar plant. Would it be wise to follow that trend and relocate to Calgary?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[yeahman]

muffins, on 09 February 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

The future of Canada is clearly in Western Canada. It is where the country's population and economy is growing. .

Not sure if this is necessarily the case, if that's what your decision is hinging on. I would personally be a little weary of planning my future in a city who's economy is so dependent on the availability of a finite resource - then again, this isn't my area of expertise. Calgary has been booming for a while now, and there certainly are more opportunities there for the entry level positions you mentioned. If you don't see yourself practicing in Ontario and are intrigued by life out west, Calgary can be a fantastic option.

As a Toronto native, I have some family in Calgary and have spent some summers there and it truly has a unique feel to it. There's something to be said for a city where people on the whole are doing well for themselves - there is less of that GTA drudgery, which can be especially offputtng for small town folk (or any folk I assume). If you are leaning towards life out West, I don't see anything wrong with choosing Calgary over Western. If you change your mind halfway through law school and want to work in a larger market in Ontario, or alternatively go to Western and want to work out west, I don't think you would be too hampered either way.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

Edited by yeahman, 09 February 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[briviere]

It's amazing that you've posted this today, the census data have really made me wonder and now I'm struggling through the exact same dilemma - except between Os and UofC. I'm from a no-so-small blue-collar city in Ontario where the vast majority of people are split between auto manufacturing, auto parts manufacturing, and various low paying no-benefit service sector jobs. Needless to say when shifts were cut at the plant there were huge repercussions.

I've also been misfortunate enough to work in the "innovation" based tech industry since graduation. If nothing else, I learned that, without manufacturing, the tech sector - regardless of how innovative we get - will never be able to replace those skilled/non-skilled labour jobs in Ontario and I worry what that might mean for my city and Ontario as a whole. The energy and mineral sectors are booming (just look at how many conventional/solution mining operations are breaking ground in Saskatchewan) and I wonder if it might be more prudent to follow the money westward.

So, what are the chances of an Os grad out West? I know nobody can answer definitely, but informed opinions are appreciated.

Edited by briviere, 09 February 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[bixi]

As someone from Western Canada who went out East for undergrad and is now going back West for law school, perhaps I can offer some advice. When you say that there are no attainable professional jobs, I'm not sure if you refer to just your town or all of Ontario, but I would agree with your idea that the West (particularly Alberta) has more of these. That said, it's not as though you are handed a career the moment you cross the Alberta-Saskatchewan border. From my experience,the good jobs out West are still competitive. I would advise against going West solely because of the job market, as these things could well be different three or four years from now. No doubt, employment prospects should be a part of your decision, but I would give equal weight to things like school program strengths and how much you like the "feel" city. No one can perfectly predict the future of the economy, so be cautious when using those predictions to plan your life.

Speaking French isn't generally very important to employers out West, by the way. Unless you're working for the Federal Government, your third language may be more valued. Still, I'm a bit jealous. I wish I had the motivation to bring my French up to par...

Anyways, good luck with the school decision.

[muffins]

Thanks for the comments so far.

Briviere:

I read the Globe & Mail today and there are several compelling arguments on the fate of Ontario's economy. Every economy has a base, and in Ontario it is manufacturing. Unfortunately, Ontario has not realised that most manufacturing is no longer a competitive sector in Canada. In 8 hours a truck can be in Georgia where the minimum wage is $7.25 (there is no minimum wage for companies with fewer than 6 employees). The provincial government has made some attempts to attract manufacturing back to Ontario, particularly in the renewable energy sector. However, once all the government money dries up, those companies are going to pick-up and leave with all the tech and designs that the province financed and manufacture it in another market. The mentality of manufacturing dependence is even more true in municipal governments.

Edited by muffins, 09 February 2012 - 10:11 AM.

[Gronk]

Could it be argued it won't matter where you live? The federal government will continue stealing billions from Albertans to spread throughout the rest of the country.

[SaulGoodman]

Gronk, on 13 February 2012 - 02:34 PM, said:

Could it be argued it won't matter where you live? The federal government will continue stealing billions from Albertans to spread throughout the rest of the country.

Redistribution does not stimulate economic growth.

[Malicious Prosecutor]

If you look at it from a purely economic point of view moving to Alberta makes a lot of sense. I moved here after law school, not before. Once in a while I think about moving back, but it seems almost impossible when you look at the disparity in salaries being offered.

That being said, your home will always be your home. It was easy to be away from home when you're young and single. But as you get older (and your parents get older!), once you have kids, home can tug pretty strongly as well.

[johnalm]

Malicious, do you mean the salaries in Alberta are better than Ontario for Laywers?

Edited by johnalm, 13 February 2012 - 06:59 PM.

[antoniogates]

I'm starting to get the impression that the cost of living is relatively high in Alberta, and may offset any comparitive increase in salary...can anyone offer input on this? How would the cost of living in Calgary compare to Toronto? I was expecting it to be considerably lower and I've been surprised to hear the opposite lately

Edited by antoniogates, 13 February 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[Gronk]

I wish I could help you out being from Calgary and all, but I have nothing to compare it to as I've lived here my whole life. I can tell you the wages seem out of control, even a friend of mine who cheated his way through business school at Mount Royal College is up to $140k with stock 3 years out.

And people make fun of you for going to Mount Royal College here..

However rent has not increased as drastically as housing prices have in Calgary, but I don't expect you plan to rent long if ever. And everyone working for an oil company will tell you they work in "oil and gas" like it's something special. Including the girls serving sandwiches in the offices and answering the phones.

[Mal]

antoniogates, on 13 February 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

I'm starting to get the impression that the cost of living is relatively high in Alberta, and may offset any comparitive increase in salary...can anyone offer input on this? How would the cost of living in Calgary compare to Toronto? I was expecting it to be considerably lower and I've been surprised to hear the opposite lately

Calgary is cheaper than Vancouver and Toronto but not considerably so.

[babs1186]

Vancouver was just ranked the most expensive city to live in in North America, third in the world if I'm correct.

I have just decided to move from Abbotsford (east of Vancouver) to Calgary and attend U of C. I spent three days in the city last week visiting campus and getting the "feel" for the city. I loved it. Great vibe, young population, booming economy, beautiful scenery, lots of sunshine (yes I know it's cold but the sun is very refreshing compared to the dark cloudy rainy weather here in BC), affordable rent/housing costs... in general just feels like it has a lot to offer. Had a wonderful visit at the law school, the building is very bright and welcoming (so were the faculty and students for that matter!). Only downside being that I'll probably be pressured into converting to a Flames fan...

I had the same East vs West debate as you when choosing between U of C and Dalhousie. I plan to work in either BC or Alberta after law school, and ultimately the access to a larger legal market closer to home won the battle. I met students at Dalhousie who were doing summer articles in Vancouver, and I'm not saying that it isn't possible. It just doesn't fit into my lifestyle and doesn't seem feasible for me to travel back and forth across the country.

That's my two cents Muffins...

[muffins]

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate them. I would love to study/work in Calgary for 5-10 years. Eventually, I will want to move back to Ontario because my family is here.

I was very impressed with Dalhousie and Halifax, so Calgary must have been incredible. I haven't been there in almost 10 years now. Time flies.

[Malicious Prosecutor]

johnalm, on 13 February 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Malicious, do you mean the salaries in Alberta are better than Ontario for Laywers?

Missed this first time around.

I didn't specify where "home" was for me. It's not Ontario.

As well I should be clear that I was talking about government salaries, as that is where my career has taken me. In government, Ontario pays the highest, then Alberta and BC, then there is everyone else.

Outside of government...At the top end, the big Bay Streem offices pay the highest. From what I remember Calgary is probably second highest. But outside of Biglaw, it wouldn't surprise me if the median salary for Alberta was higher than Ontario. But I don't have any statistics on that.

[Malicious Prosecutor]

muffins, on 21 February 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate them. I would love to study/work in Calgary for 5-10 years. Eventually, I will want to move back to Ontario because my family is here.

I was very impressed with Dalhousie and Halifax, so Calgary must have been incredible. I haven't been there in almost 10 years now. Time flies.

It is really quite difficult to move between jurisdictions. If you want to wind up in Ontario, you're best to stay in Ontario.

[babs1186]

muffins, on 21 February 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

I was very impressed with Dalhousie and Halifax, so Calgary must have been incredible. I haven't been there in almost 10 years now. Time flies.

The building was renovated in 2008...

[deadMoose]

muffins, on 21 February 2012 - 07:03 AM, said:

I would love to study/work in Calgary for 5-10 years. Eventually, I will want to move back to Ontario because my family is here.

I have the same approach. I would love to be out west, but also torn because my family is in Ontario.

Studying and then working in Calgary sounds very good, even if its for a short time (or maybe a long time?)... If I get the chance to be out West (come on Calgary and TRU), I'm most likely going to jump at it, especially after having spent my entire life in Ontario.

[theprophet89]

deadMoose, on 22 February 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

I have the same approach. I would love to be out west, but also torn because my family is in Ontario.

Studying and then working in Calgary sounds very good, even if its for a short time (or maybe a long time?)... If I get the chance to be out West (come on Calgary and TRU), I'm most likely going to jump at it, especially after having spent my entire life in Ontario.

I'm the same. Hopefully applying and getting into a school out west next cycle but have family/strong roots to Ontario. Hopefully the rumoured surplus of jobs in N. Ontario is still around in 10 years so I can move back and live in beautiful northern ontario.

[TheLastBestWest]

yeahman, on 09 February 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

Not sure if this is necessarily the case, if that's what your decision is hinging on. I would personally be a little weary of planning my future in a city who's economy is so dependent on the availability of a finite resource - then again, this isn't my area of expertise.

I always find comments like these interesting. The fact is, that Alberta's conventional oil and gas resources have only begun declining in the last 10 years. Additionally, the Athabasca Oil Sands, using today's technology and methods, will last for over 200 years. If you factor in increased recoverability because of technology and process innovation, the patch will last for hundreds. Oil will be displaced by anthoer fuel before it runs out. Even then, oil is still used for many other things, like in plastics.

One of Ontario's economic bases is manufacturing and it is quite likley that automation and outsourcing will destroy manufacturing jobs before the oil industry collapses. If I had to choose which province, Ontario or Alberta, to put my stock in, I would pick the latter.

[SaulGoodman]

TheLastBestWest, on 23 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

I always find comments like these interesting. The fact is, that Alberta's conventional oil and gas resources have only begun declining in the last 10 years. Additionally, the Athabasca Oil Sands, using today's technology and methods, will last for over 200 years. If you factor in increased recoverability because of technology and process innovation, the patch will last for hundreds. Oil will be displaced by anthoer fuel before it runs out. Even then, oil is still used for many other things, like in plastics.

One of Ontario's economic bases is manufacturing and it is quite likley that automation and outsourcing will destroy manufacturing jobs before the oil industry collapses. If I had to choose which province, Ontario or Alberta, to put my stock in, I would pick the latter.

Additionally, Alberta has the third largest quantity of recoverable oil in the world (after Saudi Arabia and Venezuela). With this in mind and what you've posted, I think individuals who seem to think that the oil boom in Alberta will collapse in the near future are mistaken

[TheLastBestWest]

TheLastBestWest, on 23 February 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

One of Ontario's economic bases is manufacturing and it is quite likley that automation and outsourcing will destroy manufacturing jobs before the oil industry collapses. If I had to choose which province, Ontario or Alberta, to put my stock in, I would pick the latter.

I should add that I don't think Alberta's oil industry will collapse in our lifetime. There will continue to be improvments in fuel efficency and electric cars, but I still think petroleum will be the primary fuel source for the rest of the 21st century.

I also don't buy the argument that Central Canada will become the new Maritimes. Despite the difficulties facing the manufacturing sector, Onatro (and Quebec) is still this nation's financial, governmental, cultural and technological centre.

[Error01]

Malicious Prosecutor, on 21 February 2012 - 07:56 AM, said:

Outside of government...At the top end, the big Bay Streem offices pay the highest. From what I remember Calgary is probably second highest. But outside of Biglaw, it wouldn't surprise me if the median salary for Alberta was higher than Ontario. But I don't have any statistics on that.

A while ago I did a comparison of after-tax salaries at Blake's in Calgary and Toronto. The salary information I had available is fairly outdated and salaries may not have changed proportionately since that time, but the general thrust of the thread was that after several years a Calgary associate may out-earn a Toronto associate on an after-tax basis (scroll down to post 12 for estimates including bonuses).

http://lawstudents.c...ary-vs-toronto/


As a long-run consideration, I think Ontario's income taxes are more likely to rise than fall because of ongoing fiscal problems. The city of Toronto has also been experiencing fiscal problems for a long time. This could eventually lead to new taxes.
I would guess that Toronto also has higher property taxes (currently), but I remember that I was not able to find information on this when I was researching the above thread.

Edited by Error01, 27 February 2012 - 08:42 PM.