43 replies to this topic

[Scott75]

I never finished high school; got 29 1/2 credits, including math, english and introduction to law (got an A), went to college, took computer programming, didn't like that so after a year and a half, took computer networking, didn't like that either, so after another year and a half just stopped. So didn't finish high school, or any college course.

I'd like to take something online so I don't have to spend a ton of money on housing (currently renting from my mother, rent is good and a lot of free food ). So any suggestions? I'm also interested in what careers in law are in high demand.

[whereverjustice]

On the lawyer side: there are no Canadian law schools that allow you do do your degree online. Moreover, the National Committee on Accreditation (which is in charge of people who want to be lawyers in Canada but got their law degrees elsewhere) disapproves of distance-learning degrees.

Law schools in Ontario are located in Ottawa, London, Windsor, Kingston, and Toronto. A new law school in Thunder Bay will be opening shortly. That said, you'd need pretty spectacular experience to get admitted to an law school without completing a post-secondary program, let alone without an OSSD.

Some alternatives you might consider: Law clerk, paralegal, police officer. Still an uphill battle without the OSSD, though.

ETA: Maybe something like this?

Edited by whereverjustice, 08 February 2012 - 08:49 AM.
add another idea

[redlead]

I agree with whereverjustice in considering careers in law that do not require a law degree. You're going to have an extremely difficult time getting into any reputable program in any country without a high school diploma. Even in the sketchiest of programs most students have a university degree upon entry. I'm not sure why you mentioned that you got an A in a high school law class. Hopefully you understand that the class you took bears no resemblance to any legal career whatsoever. It sounds harsh, but if you find yourself unable to complete an education of any kind, now might be the time to work for a while to see what you are good at, and to finish your high school equivalency.

[staffer]

Scott:

If you have been out of school (all school, including college) for more than 5 years you can apply as a mature candidate. However, to compensate for lack of a university degree you would need to demonstrate significant life achievements (such as excellence in your professional life). Further, because you never went to university, you'll need to demonstrate extremely high aptitude through an outstanding LSAT score (I can't imagine anything short 170).

However, be cautioned: Law school is a serious commitment. Just getting in will take months of work (including LSAT prep and application writing) and cost hundreds of dollars (just in application and fees). If you get admitted, law school is extremely challenging (I've been told - I'm a current applicant) and will take practically all of your time for 3 years. It will also cost you between $10,000-$25,000 PER YEAR in tuition alone.

If you are absolutely set on law school, here's what I think you should do:
1) Before you start, talk to any lawyer you might know and ask them everything you can. Be absolutely sure it's what you want to do for the next 35 years and if possible, shadow them for a few days
2) Complete your OSSD or see if you can get into a Canadian undergrad programs based on your incomplete highschool and college work
3) Complete a 3 year undergrad degree taking a full course load and receiving high marks in all your courses. Depending on the school you may be able to transfer some of your college credits, but keep in mind that these won't count towards your admissions average. If you don't have straight As in your 3 years, you'll probably need to fo a 4th year of undergrad work. If you do a 3 year degree, you should have an average above 85% or so. If you have a 4 year degree, you'll need a B+ (77%) minimum to go to law school
4) While completing your undergrad degree, rigorously prepare for the LSAT test. Aim to score above 160, which is the 80th percentile.
5) While completing your undergrad degree, be an active member of your community; volunteer, work part-time, participate in sports, publish academically, take a leadership roll in a club or student government, or find another way to distinguish yourself. Form meaningful relationships with professors who can write letters of recommendation for you. While high numbers (GPA and LSAT) alone can get you into law school, if you're a borderline applicant, these soft factors can give you a significant edge.

Assuming you start in September and do 3 years of undergrad, graduate law school on time, pass your bar exam on the first shot, and find an article right out of law school, you could potentially be a licenced lawyer as early as June 2019.

[Hegdis]

Scott, cart before horse. Get your high school diploma or equivalency.

If you can't demonstrate the ability to complete high school, you are shutting down so many other options in your life. You're still young - spend the next year or whatever it takes to get your GED. It is a small time commitment compared to the many years that make up the rest of your life.

One you have your GED, if you want to be a lawyer - apply to a University. If you can actually commit to an undergraduate degree - which will, by the way, involve mandatory boring classes that yes, you have to take and complete and get a good grade in - then you might manage getting into law school. (Assuming your grades are high enough and you can write and score high on the LSAT.)

If you aren't willing or able to do these things, being a lawyer in Canada just isn't going to happen for you. Not being able to finish high school or finish college courses is a big red flag that you are either unreliable, lazy, or have some major stuff happening in your life that makes it impossible for you to finish what you've started. None of these options bode well for you.


As for other kinds of degrees - believe me, lots of people are going to be very happy to take your money. Be very wary of online courses and private schools that purport to set you up for "a career in law". Analyze their credentials, their placement rates, and their competition. Throwing money at these places will get you a piece of paper in the end, no doubt. Whether that paper is worth anything is another question entirely, and not one you want to be asking when you're several thousand dollars in debt and still unemployed.

Edited by Hegdis, 08 February 2012 - 01:56 PM.

[muffins]

Hegdis, on 08 February 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Scott, cart before horse. Get your high school diploma or equivalency.

If you can't demonstrate the ability to complete high school, you are shutting down so many other options in your life. You're still young - spend the next year or whatever it takes to get your GED. It is a small time commitment compared to the many years that make up the rest of your life.

One you have your GED, if you want to be a lawyer - apply to a University. If you can actually commit to an undergraduate degree - which will, by the way, involve mandatory boring classes that yes, you have to take and complete and get a good grade in - then you might manage getting into law school. (Assuming your grades are high enough and you can write and score high on the LSAT.)

If you aren't willing or able to do these things, being a lawyer in Canada just isn't going to happen for you. Not being able to finish high school or finish college courses is a big red flag that you are either unreliable, lazy, or have some major stuff happening in your life that makes it impossible for you to finish what you've started. None of these options bode well for you.


As for other kinds of degrees - believe me, lots of people are going to be very happy to take your money. Be very wary of online courses and private schools that purport to set you up for "a career in law". Analyze their credentials, their placement rates, and their competition. Throwing money at these places will get you a piece of paper in the end, no doubt. Whether that paper is worth anything is another question entirely, and not one you want to be asking when you're several thousand dollars in debt and still unemployed.

Well said.

This is very true. Education is like a building, you need a foundation before you begin to build upwards.

You need to finish your high school diploma and then determine which route you want to pursue (university or college).

There are many private colleges out there that will take your money and claim to be able to get you the job you want. In reality, they don't. The job market is such that new police officers and paramedics usually have university degrees now.

[Diplock]

As a marginally more accessible option - though still subject to the very important qualifications offered by Hegdis - Ontario does have regulated paralegals now. You could complete high school (or not) and pursue that immediately at the college level at a reputable school. Don't do it online though, even if offered. And for God's sake, yes, accept that sometimes you need to learn something boring. If you can't handle that much you just shouldn't be in school right now.

[Scott75]

whereverjustice, on 08 February 2012 - 08:47 AM, said:

On the lawyer side: there are no Canadian law schools that allow you do do your degree online. Moreover, the National Committee on Accreditation (which is in charge of people who want to be lawyers in Canada but got their law degrees elsewhere) disapproves of distance-learning degrees.

Law schools in Ontario are located in Ottawa, London, Windsor, Kingston, and Toronto. A new law school in Thunder Bay will be opening shortly. That said, you'd need pretty spectacular experience to get admitted to an law school without completing a post-secondary program, let alone without an OSSD.

Some alternatives you might consider: Law clerk, paralegal, police officer. Still an uphill battle without the OSSD, though.

ETA: Maybe something like this?

Thanks for the info. I'm thinking that that course you linked to might just be what I'm looking for. If I were to complete that course, I think that would be useful in trying to go any further as well, wouldn't it?

[Scott75]

Thanks everyone for all of the information. To be honest, I'm not as young as I might seem from what I've written so far; I'm actually 36. The course wheneverjustice mentioned looks like it might be my best option, but alternatively (or if I don't get accepted there, perhaps in part because of my incomplete high school completion), I may consider finishing high school first.

[theprophet89]

Finishing high school is the obvious first step.

[redlead]

Scott75, on 08 February 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Thanks for the info. I'm thinking that that course you linked to might just be what I'm looking for. If I were to complete that course, I think that would be useful in trying to go any further as well, wouldn't it?

If you're still talking about a career as a lawyer, almost definitely not. A two semester program that doesn't lead to a diploma will not be very helpful in getting you into law school. Even if you were applying as mature or special consideration, the selection processes are extremely rigorous. Additionally, some mature categories are not defined as how old you are but rather as how long you've been out of full time post-secondary. That means that a program such as this could reset your eligibility for those admissions categories.

[Scott75]

redlead, on 08 February 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

If you're still talking about a career as a lawyer, almost definitely not. A two semester program that doesn't lead to a diploma will not be very helpful in getting you into law school. Even if you were applying as mature or special consideration, the selection processes are extremely rigorous. Additionally, some mature categories are not defined as how old you are but rather as how long you've been out of full time post-secondary. That means that a program such as this could reset your eligibility for those admissions categories.

I see. Well, I guess I'll have to do some thinking on all of this, thanks.

[Scott75]

theprophet89, on 08 February 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

Finishing high school is the obvious first step.

My mother's always telling me that finishing high school is irrelevant because I've got college experience. Guess that's not necessarily the case .

[theprophet89]

If you finish high school, you can apply to university as a mature student. There are far more people in university over the age of 30 than you'd think.

This would be a fresh start academically; if you did well enough you would be given a better-than-fair shake at law school if you had the grades.


EDIT: You may even be able to get into university without high school... I'd look into it if I were you.

Edited by theprophet89, 08 February 2012 - 11:32 PM.

[Gronk]

Decided to get an account to post a reply.

I had half my high school credits and obviously no diploma when I went to university.

Now I have two years of undergrad with a 3.9 gpa on a 4.0 scale. Took 5 practice lsats, scoring in the low/mid 160's. Based on the information I've read in these forums, and the school's web page, I will be enrolled in fall 2012 with a 158 or higher lsat score this Sat.

Doesn't appear to me high school is all that important.

[Stark]

Gronk, on 09 February 2012 - 12:56 AM, said:

Decided to get an account to post a reply.

I had half my high school credits and obviously no diploma when I went to university.

Now I have two years of undergrad with a 3.9 gpa on a 4.0 scale. Took 5 practice lsats, scoring in the low/mid 160's. Based on the information I've read in these forums, and the school's web page, I will be enrolled in fall 2012 with a 158 or higher lsat score this Sat.

Doesn't appear to me high school is all that important.

Glad to hear it's worked out for you but you most know that you're the exception to the rule.

[muffins]

Stark, on 09 February 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

Glad to hear it's worked out for you but you most know that you're the exception to the rule.

Very much so. Although, I suppose you can be accepted to university before you technically graduate from high school.

[Gronk]

I don't think having a high school diploma could ever hurt you. But from my personal experience, I see it as an unnecessary hurdle. Especially for an arts degree. The program you enter will have prerequisite high school classes you must have completed anyway. Not to bash on high school too much, but I don't think it does the job preparing you for post-secondary the way its teachers and principals would have you believe. Even though I was an AP student and had some of the highest marks in my classes, according to my school I was doomed to packing groceries because I liked to skip class and would not have the diploma (obviously I'm still bitter and annoyed).

I really believe you either have an ability to compete at the next level or you don't. You'll have the motivation to do what you need to get done or you won't. High school will be little more than an early measuring stick, if you can get into university without it go for it.

And good luck getting to where you want to be!

Edited by Gronk, 09 February 2012 - 02:43 PM.

[justfish]

Generally speaking, you do not need to have finished high school to enter college or even university. Most, if not all, post-secondary schools have a 'mature' category that usually boils down to two years out of any type of schooling. You may want to seriously look into Humber's paralegal program. I know a couple of young students who did the law clerk program (2 years) and found it a waste of time and money, but were very happy after they switched to the paralegal program. Being a paralegal is regulated, offers interesting opportunities, has potential to pay well and is, to a certain degree, a better ROI (time and money) if you're not interested in either Big Law or Big Legal Theories.

I humbly submit... if your main goal is a better paying/more interesting career than the one you have now, and you would like that be in the legal field, get to work on getting yourself into a paralegal program at a provincial college (part-time/night time if you need to, but not, not, NOT any of those private providers) for September, and then don't look back.

If, on the other hand, your burning desire is to study the law and become a lawyer at just about any cost, get yourself into a university for September, work your ass off, and don't look back.

Good luck!

[Adrian]

Gronk, on 09 February 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

I don't think having a high school diploma could ever hurt you. But from my personal experience, I see it as an unnecessary hurdle. Especially for an arts degree. The program you enter will have prerequisite high school classes you must have completed anyway. Not to bash on high school too much, but I don't think it does the job preparing you for post-secondary the way its teachers and principals would have you believe. Even though I was an AP student and had some of the highest marks in my classes, according to my school I was doomed to packing groceries because I liked to skip class and would not have the diploma (obviously I'm still bitter and annoyed).

I really believe you either have an ability to compete at the next level or you don't. You'll have the motivation to do what you need to get done or you won't. High school will be little more than an early measuring stick, if you can get into university without it go for it.

And good luck getting to where you want to be!

How can you know what high school does and does not prepare you for when you didn't go to class? Besides, just because you could get top marks without attending doesn't mean everyone can.

Also, what was that quote, the first step to succeed is showing up?

[y_is_law_so_perverse?]

Go to jdunderground.com to get another perspective. Posts there may mostly refer to the US, but you'll get the views from wittier and more knowledgable people. Also the current state of the legal profession in the US is the harbinger of what's coming to Canada.

This site is mostly filled with preachers to the choir.

[staffer]

y_is_law_so_perverse?, on 10 February 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Go to jdunderground.com to get another perspective. Posts there may mostly refer to the US, but you'll get the views from wittier and more knowledgable people. Also the current state of the legal profession in the US is the harbinger of what's coming to Canada.

This site is mostly filled with preachers to the choir.

Nice of you to come plug your website, but I'm happy here. The current state of the legal profession in the US is a result of the market being flooded, since their is basically no limit on the number of lawyers who graduate their. Its' hard to compare our recent additions (one opened, one forthcoming) of two small, rural-focused law schools (TRU and Lakehead) with the US's onslaught of de facto degree mills like Cooley or Jeferson .

[Stark]

Staffer hits the nail on the head. It doesn't take a genius to realize that one of the biggest problems there is that they have way too many schools who are pumping out way too many lawyers every year. Of course it's going to be a saturated market.

[Scott75]

justfish, on 09 February 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Generally speaking, you do not need to have finished high school to enter college or even university. Most, if not all, post-secondary schools have a 'mature' category that usually boils down to two years out of any type of schooling. You may want to seriously look into Humber's paralegal program. I know a couple of young students who did the law clerk program (2 years) and found it a waste of time and money, but were very happy after they switched to the paralegal program. Being a paralegal is regulated, offers interesting opportunities, has potential to pay well and is, to a certain degree, a better ROI (time and money) if you're not interested in either Big Law or Big Legal Theories.

I humbly submit... if your main goal is a better paying/more interesting career than the one you have now, and you would like that be in the legal field, get to work on getting yourself into a paralegal program at a provincial college (part-time/night time if you need to, but not, not, NOT any of those private providers) for September, and then don't look back.

If, on the other hand, your burning desire is to study the law and become a lawyer at just about any cost, get yourself into a university for September, work your ass off, and don't look back.

Good luck!

Sounds cool . One question; let's say that I do this paralegal course; if, sometime after that, I decide I'd like to become a lawyer, wouldn't it help somewhat to have done that paralegal course?

[Scott75]

y_is_law_so_perverse?, on 10 February 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Go to jdunderground.com to get another perspective. Posts there may mostly refer to the US, but you'll get the views from wittier and more knowledgable people. Also the current state of the legal profession in the US is the harbinger of what's coming to Canada.

This site is mostly filled with preachers to the choir.

I've definitely heard that a lot of educational institutions aren't worth the money, both here and abroad. However, I've read the posts in response to yours here, will get to their points next.

[Scott75]

staffer, on 10 February 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

Nice of you to come plug your website, but I'm happy here. The current state of the legal profession in the US is a result of the market being flooded, since their is basically no limit on the number of lawyers who graduate their. Its' hard to compare our recent additions (one opened, one forthcoming) of two small, rural-focused law schools (TRU and Lakehead) with the US's onslaught of de facto degree mills like Cooley or Jeferson .

I don't agree with the idea that we should limit the amount of people who are allowed to become lawyers. That being said, there's a difference between graduating as many lawyers as are fit to graduate and telling people that by getting into a lot of debt, they'll get jobs when they won't. Judging from Wikipedia's entry on Cooley (particularly the class action made against it) as well as the way it ranks itself, it's pretty bad. Far worse, I believe, is its efforts to persecute a blogger who has criticized the school. Personally, I liked the conclusion of that article:

Quote

This whole enchilada of job data could be the law school equivalent of Enron. The unintended consequence could be to resurrect apprenticeship, which suited Abraham Lincoln and Clarence Darrow fine, as an alternate to three years of law school at $150,000.

The Thomas Jefferson law school may have saved itself some grief by not ranking itself so high, but like Cooley, it's also got a class action law suit against it, and judging from this article, it's a good thing too.

Edited by Scott75, 11 February 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[muffins]

Scott75, on 11 February 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

I don't agree with the idea that we should limit the amount of people who are allowed to become lawyers. That being said, there's a difference between graduating as many lawyers as are fit to graduate and telling people that by getting into a lot of debt, they'll get jobs when they won't. Judging from Wikipedia's entry on Cooley (particularly the class action made against it) as well as the way it ranks itself, it's pretty bad. Far worse, I believe, is its efforts to persecute a blogger who has criticized the school. Personally, I liked the conclusion of that article:


The Thomas Jefferson law school doesn't seem to be much better; it may have saved itself some grief by not ranking itself so high, but like Cooley, it's also got a class action law suit against it, and judging from this article, it's a good thing too.

Mmmm. Your paragraph seems to contradict itself.

[Scott75]

muffins, on 11 February 2012 - 05:03 AM, said:

Mmmm. Your paragraph seems to contradict itself.

I'll make my point more concisely: it's one thing to allow people to spend their money on bad investments. It's another to tell them that the bad investments are good ones. Kind of like what the financial industry did not so long ago.. but since they rule the world, they get bonuses for it -.-.

Edited by Scott75, 11 February 2012 - 05:07 AM.

[Scott75]

I found a link to a Canadian online university called Learn4good; it has a bachelor of arts in Law and Justice; anyone heard of this web site? I've tried to find reviews of it that weren't on the site, but really haven't found anything yet.

Edited by Scott75, 14 February 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[orion88]

Bachelor's in arts in law and justice has nothing to do with a LLB or JD, it's akin to getting a bachelor's in political science, history, geography etc. with the difference of course being an emphasis on law and justice...UBC has a similar bachelor's in arts law degree which they recently created...