11 replies to this topic

[Oracle1729]

I'm trying to decide on applying for 2013, and I'm in a very different position from most applications so I'm hoping for some help figuring out if I have any chance at all of getting in.

My LSAT is 163. I'm 10 years out of my undergrad, and my cGPA was 2.4 and best 2 was 3.2 (which was my first and last semesters). But I majored in Computer Engineering and minored in Electrical Engineering at UofT, and I took a lot of advanced level courses (a step above honours), which definitely hurt my marks, though I learned a lot more and figured it was a terminal degree for me so it made sense to learn the best I could and not worry about marks. I did take an information technology law class in 4th year and got 88% in it.

For the past 5 years I'd worked for the ministry of the Attorney General in an in courtroom job, so I probably have 7-8000 hours of courtroom experience. My letters of reference can be from some of the judges I work with or people somewhat high up in Court Services Division. In my last job before that, I wrote the web browser for an internet TV appliance. Academic references will be impossible because I doubt any of my professors will even remember me from a lecture of 200 after such a long time.

During my undergrad, I was very involved in extra-curricular, I was on several club executives, and I helped set up an interschool-league...but again, that was 10 years ago, so I doubt I can find any references to confirm that but why should anyone care today what extra-curricular I did a decade ago. Now I'm living real life, so I have some minimal volunteer work but nothing special, and not even close to what the typical applicant will have.

So...anyone feel like taking a stab at what the admissions committee will make of me?

Thanks.

[Hegdis]

Give it a shot. You can apply under the mature student category which is meant to take into account life experiences just like yours.

One of your biggest selling points is you have a very realistic concept of what it means to practise law; as opposed to the starry-eyed idealistic students who watch too much Law & Order and think "human rights" law has a great hiring percentage (that was me).

[johnalm]

Oracle, I am also a graduate of Electrical Engineering. The sad reality is that, although we go throught a tough time - especially you, since you took higher level classes- we are still lumped with the rest of the world. The good news is: its not quite that simple.

You see, how universities go throught applications is by initially ranking by highest LSAT/cGPA (hypothetically, 180/4.0 i.e., would be top of the list- maybe not even quite). My understanding is, and what I've seen, is that they look at applications in that order: from highest to lowest.

Lets say you have 157, B2=3.9, Cgpa=2.6. Your B2 is beyond competative, HOWEVER you will be ranked very low and your application (regardeless of stellar extraicciruclar merrits) will not be reviewed until the very end-- by this time, who knows if there is still a spot left for you...

Conversely, If you have 179, Cgpa=3.8...your in a very different box.

Going back to your situation: On the outset, the admission committee will only see lsat+cgpa and not see the nuances of your case (ie. great softs, special circumstance regarding higher level courses--> perhaps you have highlighted all this in your personal statment). You are simply INITIALLY a number: Cgpa: 2.4 and LSAT: 163. Even thought your B2 can get you into some colleges, you will be ranked EXTREMELY Low. By the time they come to you and realize the special guy you are: its too late. Don't get me wrong: 163 is really good LSAT! Kudos to you, 90%! Unfortuantely, given your cgpa, it doesn't cut it- very unfortunately.

Your best bet is to seriously boost your LSAT. This means increasing your LSAT to atleast 170 IMO. This way your file will be ranked higher. They will see all the great stuff you have, and they will most certainly throw you an offer!

Point being: Boost your rank so that your file can be more visible earlier on, and your special circumstance can be more visibile to the committee earlier on in the selection process. Otherwise, your just 2 numbers: lsat + cgpa.

Extra Note: As the person above me said, your also mature category: +1 for your application.

Edited by johnalm, 30 January 2012 - 09:31 PM.

[yeahman]

Interesting background. Your LSAT definitely will not hurt you, and you would definitely be eligible for a "mature" category at schools you apply to. If it were up to me, I would say you are more prepared for law school than the hoards of 22 year olds with stellar GPA's and zero life experience. Alas, it is not up to me, and I don't think anyone can tell you your "chances" with any certainty as schools don't publish statistics for the "mature category." A lot of these decisions appear to be based on subjective factors which can work in your favour. Your best bet would be to apply to the more holistic schools (Calgary, Windsor, Osgoode) who may overlook your undergraduate GPA and focus on your significant achievements in the workforce.

Also, don't bank on law schools to give you a mulligan for your GPA based on your programs perceived difficulty. Many people on this forum will be quick to tell you that they did significantly better in an equally tough program.

[Oracle1729]

I do understand the schools generally just look at marks and not what the subject is, so the person with a 90 in 3-year poli-sci has a big advantage while I feel I'd be the better candidate. I'm not expecting a mulligan for my GPA, but a lot of the lawyers I see are pretty clueless and just take easy courses and second-rate schools for their undergrad just to get into law school. I think the profession would be a lot better if schools looked at a transcript beyond the numbers more.

I'm not sure how much the mature category will help me. I don't need a degree at all for that so hopefully having one at all puts me in better shape. I've heard Osgoode is much worse for mature students since they went holistic.

[theiva4]

you seem bitter. And difficulty is such a subjective measure that it would be difficult to compare the perceived difficulty of different programs. I am science guy and I find biochem and organic easy but an arts student might not. So would a science degree (+ 3 hour labs) be perceived as more difficult than an arts? iunno.....

[johnalm]

I agree with your oracle, absolutely do. In addition to my engineering degree, I took a number of poli-sci courses. I can tell your first hand that their first year and second year courses are absolute jokes. But as they go to 3rd year and 4th year (incidentially the B2/L2 years they apply with)- their courses become alot more serious, with alot more work- very comparable to engineering- and very respectable.

Regardeless, I also once thought with your mentaility: unfortunately the reality is much different. Of-course it differs from one school to another.

[staffer]

Normally, Oracle, for a candidate with your stats I would recommend taking additional undergrad courses to lift your GPA, but I'm concerned that in your case if would jeopardize your status as a mature applicant.

Unfortunately, you're just going to have to apply and see what happens.

[muffins]

Research the schools. With your background and life experiences as well as your strong LSAT (don't let anyone tell you that a 163 is not a "strong" score), I think you have a shot at certain schools. UofT, McGill, UBC, uVic, Queen's are probably out of the question. However, Calgary, Ottawa, Windsor are probably do-able for you.

Also, look at your transcripts and see how the different schools calculate your GPA. Calgary for example goes back 60 credits (3= half year, 6 = full year) and so does Dal. Western and Queen's just go back your last 2. So your first two years may not even be that big of a draw back.

[dschiiss14]

It really is too bad there isn't a way to make it easier to look at difficulty of a degree. I experienced this first hand. I was in one program at UBC for two years, had a 90% average doing literally no work. Then i transferred to a different program, spent hours and hours of work, and was lucky to get about an 83% average. And I was in the top 5% of students in my program. So realistically, I could have stayed in the easier program got a 4.0, which would have taken more pressure off. Oh well.

The fact of the matter is it all works out in the end, since a more difficult program will make it easier for you to succeed in law school, and those students with a 4.0 in basket-weaving will most likely have a tough time doing well.

[staffer]

dschiiss, I'm not sure I buy the whole 'more difficult' degree argument. I definitely recognize that my engineering friends spent more time studying and doing homework than me (I was in Politics) but many of them have really poor writing skills. Their degree would be harder for me, and my degree would be harder for them.

[dschiiss14]

staffer, on 31 January 2012 - 03:25 PM, said:

dschiiss, I'm not sure I buy the whole 'more difficult' degree argument. I definitely recognize that my engineering friends spent more time studying and doing homework than me (I was in Politics) but many of them have really poor writing skills. Their degree would be harder for me, and my degree would be harder for them.

That is just one example though. I agree that political science is also a difficult degree. I wasn't comparing degrees like that. But I think there is definitely an argument to made that there are some relatively easy degrees from certain schools.

My example although anecdotal, does illustrate that there is a difference in difficulty. I should add I started at UBCO, and the new program was a UBC in Vancouver.