What would we all be doing differently if law school didn't cost us an arm and a leg? I know I wouldn't have jumped at the first biglaw articling position dangling in front of me...
All I can add to the convo is an appreciation for the rational decision making exercised by the OP. I'm not sure I could have resisted SLS if I were in their shoes...
PS - I still think law school is a good investment, even if taking on all that debt limits what options I can entertain...
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Top 3 U.s. Or Staying In Canada
Started by tng11, Jan 26 2012 07:57 AM
43 replies to this topic
#32
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Posted 02 February 2012 - 07:36 AM
So there really was a t-shirt in that admissions package! They somehow knew my shirt size too... creepy. 
The admitted students weekend is on April 20th... that's pretty late. So if I change my mind, I will be losing the deposit at the Ontario schools. Then again, that drop in the bucket is pennies compared to how much my change of heart would cost.
The admitted students weekend is on April 20th... that's pretty late. So if I change my mind, I will be losing the deposit at the Ontario schools. Then again, that drop in the bucket is pennies compared to how much my change of heart would cost.
#33
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Posted 14 February 2012 - 07:51 AM
Out at Yale. Cycle finally over.
Withdrawn from all but Stanford and Osgoode, and will be going to check out Palo Alto at the end of April. It's still a really tough choice, because even though I don't buy into this whole prestige whoring business, the Stanford name is just far too tempting.
Withdrawn from all but Stanford and Osgoode, and will be going to check out Palo Alto at the end of April. It's still a really tough choice, because even though I don't buy into this whole prestige whoring business, the Stanford name is just far too tempting.
#34
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Posted 14 February 2012 - 10:55 AM
I'm sure the Stanford campus vs. the Osgoode campus will be very tempting as well. I'd love to hear a first hand account of what its actually like there.
I know what you mean about prestige whoring though, I honestly felt myself getting to tempted by certain school names in the States so I decided, given that I want to live and work in Ontario that I should not apply to any US schools at all.
That being said, if your display picture is of Tobias Funke and you've been accepted to Stanford Law, you're a smart individual and capable of making the best decision for yourself.
I know what you mean about prestige whoring though, I honestly felt myself getting to tempted by certain school names in the States so I decided, given that I want to live and work in Ontario that I should not apply to any US schools at all.
That being said, if your display picture is of Tobias Funke and you've been accepted to Stanford Law, you're a smart individual and capable of making the best decision for yourself.
#35
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Posted 14 February 2012 - 11:02 AM
Woo Harris, on 14 February 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:
That being said, if your display picture is of Tobias Funke and you've been accepted to Stanford Law, you're a smart individual and capable of making the best decision for yourself.
Couldn't have put it any better! You're clearly thinking this through very thoroughly and weighing the benefits and drawbacks. Whatever decision you make, I'm sure you won't regret it
#36
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Posted 15 February 2012 - 08:04 AM
tng11, on 14 February 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:
Out at Yale. Cycle finally over.
Withdrawn from all but Stanford and Osgoode, and will be going to check out Palo Alto at the end of April. It's still a really tough choice, because even though I don't buy into this whole prestige whoring business, the Stanford name is just far too tempting.
Withdrawn from all but Stanford and Osgoode, and will be going to check out Palo Alto at the end of April. It's still a really tough choice, because even though I don't buy into this whole prestige whoring business, the Stanford name is just far too tempting.
Quick question, OP: Would have gone to Yale over Osgoode had you got in?
#37
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Posted 15 February 2012 - 06:34 PM
conge, on 15 February 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:
Quick question, OP: Would have gone to Yale over Osgoode had you got in?
If it was down the line to Stanford vs. Yale and I was serious about attending a U.S. school I probably would have chosen Stanford in the end. Better climate, and the same desirable attributes of Yale (maybe fewer academia/clerkship placements, but still on the same level in many other ways.)
Edited by tng11, 15 February 2012 - 06:35 PM.
#38
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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:29 PM
Stupor, on 26 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:
JD/JD would simply delay a decision that you will still have to make, for a horribly expensive price (one more year of tuition + a year of lost earnings). Don't do it.
For your goals, it really doesn't make sense to go to Stanford. I sympathize.
Frame that admission letter and put it on your office wall (above your diploma from U of T/Osgoode) when you start working.
For your goals, it really doesn't make sense to go to Stanford. I sympathize.
Frame that admission letter and put it on your office wall (above your diploma from U of T/Osgoode) when you start working.
Not sure I agree. Given the OPs situation, if (and this is a BIG if) Osgoode and Stanford got on-board, would be perfect. Both are extremely good schools, and as noted, Osgoode's cancelling of the dual degree with NYU leaves very little in the way of options for people in the OPs position. Stanford is an elite school, so I doubt Osgoode would be worried about the caliber of the education. You also avoid the NCA challenges, and most importantly, can work in any jurisdiction north of Mexico with two elite degrees.
If it was something the OP wanted to do - it would certainly be a unique and potentially great combination if the schools came on board.
#39
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Posted 15 February 2012 - 09:48 PM
Stanford is very friendly to joint-degree programs, and Osgoode is obviously open to them as well, so yes, petitioning the two schools for permission may not be too hard. But servicing the resulting debt of a JD/JD will be - tng11 would pretty much have to go into US biglaw to pay it off, and the freedom of not having do that is one of the reason why he's turning down Stanford in the first place.
This is really the dispositive factor. For someone who wants to work in Canada, the "wow" factor is really the only benefit the JD/JD has over a JD from Osgoode alone (it is right? I'm just an ignorant 0L, so I'm just going by what every on ls.ca says, which is that perceived eliteness of school A vs school B is a complete non factor in the real world). Maybe that factor is worth >150k (additional tuition plus conservative estimate of opportunity cost) to some people, but it doesn't sound like it is for tng11. It most certainly would not be a "perfect" match for him.
tng11, on 26 January 2012 - 07:57 AM, said:
Furthermore, my long-term goal is to stay in Canada for personal reasons.
Edited by Stupor, 15 February 2012 - 10:01 PM.
#40
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Posted 15 February 2012 - 10:50 PM
I'm shallow like that. I like bling (and Stanford is academic bling.)
Kidding aside, the elitism in the U.S. between schools is justified, especially when there are hundreds of schools churning out graduates by the tens of thousands. They know there might be the hidden gems among the kids outside the T14, but firms are lazy, and they don't have so many spots that the T14 alone can't fill them up, so it's a good proxy for them. The name of the degree is required to get your foot in the door in the U.S., whereas in Canada our schools are so close to each other in quality, that firms are willing to take students from all schools (yes, they do dig deeper into the UofT class over any other school.) Other than that, it appears in Canada the actual name of your degree seems to mean bupkis once you start working, insofar that it's not going to compensate for a horrendous work product.
I've seen the numerous anecdotes about HYS graduates coming back to Canada, and they did very well, landing articles at the OCA or SCC and then going on to work for elite firms. The problem I have with that scenario is I would have paid $150K extra (plus the lost opportunity cost of NCA) to do the exact same things I probably could have gotten out of Osgoode (I'm not delusional enough to think the name alone will land me those gigs, I would still have to do well at HYS which is no small feat.) So Stanford doesn't shut the doors that Osgoode opens for me, although it would come with a hefty price tag. The disadvantage of choosing Osgoode is that it would effectively shut the doors that Stanford opens (e.g. US clerkships, academia, government, PI and most of US Biglaw.) What I keep asking myself every night is "Am I comfortable with forgoing opportunities that Stanford in return for $150K less debt?" Frankly, the answer is "Yes" every time.
In short, Osgoode is the rational decision for myself, but an underlying thirst for prestige (come on, all of us law students have it to some degree, it's inherent in our competitiveness) isn't loosening its grip on me. It's really tough because I'm really only discussing this issue on this board (I haven't told my parents, nor have I told the friends I know in law school.)
Kidding aside, the elitism in the U.S. between schools is justified, especially when there are hundreds of schools churning out graduates by the tens of thousands. They know there might be the hidden gems among the kids outside the T14, but firms are lazy, and they don't have so many spots that the T14 alone can't fill them up, so it's a good proxy for them. The name of the degree is required to get your foot in the door in the U.S., whereas in Canada our schools are so close to each other in quality, that firms are willing to take students from all schools (yes, they do dig deeper into the UofT class over any other school.) Other than that, it appears in Canada the actual name of your degree seems to mean bupkis once you start working, insofar that it's not going to compensate for a horrendous work product.
I've seen the numerous anecdotes about HYS graduates coming back to Canada, and they did very well, landing articles at the OCA or SCC and then going on to work for elite firms. The problem I have with that scenario is I would have paid $150K extra (plus the lost opportunity cost of NCA) to do the exact same things I probably could have gotten out of Osgoode (I'm not delusional enough to think the name alone will land me those gigs, I would still have to do well at HYS which is no small feat.) So Stanford doesn't shut the doors that Osgoode opens for me, although it would come with a hefty price tag. The disadvantage of choosing Osgoode is that it would effectively shut the doors that Stanford opens (e.g. US clerkships, academia, government, PI and most of US Biglaw.) What I keep asking myself every night is "Am I comfortable with forgoing opportunities that Stanford in return for $150K less debt?" Frankly, the answer is "Yes" every time.
In short, Osgoode is the rational decision for myself, but an underlying thirst for prestige (come on, all of us law students have it to some degree, it's inherent in our competitiveness) isn't loosening its grip on me. It's really tough because I'm really only discussing this issue on this board (I haven't told my parents, nor have I told the friends I know in law school.)
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Posted 16 February 2012 - 12:07 AM
A few more considerations to help you with your decision:
-SLS has a "pass/no pass [grading] system with honors and distinctions, with a limit of 30% honors in lecture classes and 40% in seminars" (wikipedia). You'll have three fairly low stress years there! Edit: Just saw this was discussed on the previous page. I don't think straight P's is that bad. The class is pretty small. Also see this tls thread. An SLS student (hung jury) claims that straight P's result in multiple offers for most students. I think it's worth asking current SLS students about this.
-Anecdotally, everyone at SLS can get biglaw (good tls thread here). I wouldn't put too much stock into the nlj250+clerkship numbers for YHS; these students have opportunities that those charts just don't capture.
-You have a decent chance of landing SA positions after 1L and (more likely) 2L. These pay well; I've seen $3000/wk for 10-12 weeks (of course there are taxes). Still, you can make a small dent in your debt. I also read somewhere about a student at Y who worked somewhere throughout law school. Don't know if this is true, but given the grading policy, I imagine you could do it.
You can talk about some of this stuff with SLS students when you visit.
tl;dr Debt sucks, but SLS is a pretty good investment.
-SLS has a "pass/no pass [grading] system with honors and distinctions, with a limit of 30% honors in lecture classes and 40% in seminars" (wikipedia). You'll have three fairly low stress years there! Edit: Just saw this was discussed on the previous page. I don't think straight P's is that bad. The class is pretty small. Also see this tls thread. An SLS student (hung jury) claims that straight P's result in multiple offers for most students. I think it's worth asking current SLS students about this.
-Anecdotally, everyone at SLS can get biglaw (good tls thread here). I wouldn't put too much stock into the nlj250+clerkship numbers for YHS; these students have opportunities that those charts just don't capture.
-You have a decent chance of landing SA positions after 1L and (more likely) 2L. These pay well; I've seen $3000/wk for 10-12 weeks (of course there are taxes). Still, you can make a small dent in your debt. I also read somewhere about a student at Y who worked somewhere throughout law school. Don't know if this is true, but given the grading policy, I imagine you could do it.
You can talk about some of this stuff with SLS students when you visit.
tl;dr Debt sucks, but SLS is a pretty good investment.
Edited by jin45, 16 February 2012 - 12:20 AM.
#42
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Posted 16 February 2012 - 05:58 AM
Op,
I think with a Stanford degree you will more than pay off your debt in no time. Struggle for a few years, benefit later on. I don't care if you're living in a box on the side of the street while attending uni, you have the rest of your life to live lavishly. I think also later on in life you will regret not going to Stanford for Osgoode a lot more than rejecting Osgoode for Stanford. That's something I wouldn't want to live with.
Cheers mate
I think with a Stanford degree you will more than pay off your debt in no time. Struggle for a few years, benefit later on. I don't care if you're living in a box on the side of the street while attending uni, you have the rest of your life to live lavishly. I think also later on in life you will regret not going to Stanford for Osgoode a lot more than rejecting Osgoode for Stanford. That's something I wouldn't want to live with.
Cheers mate
Edited by Jyeatbvg, 16 February 2012 - 05:59 AM.
#43
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Posted 16 February 2012 - 06:30 AM
jin45, on 16 February 2012 - 12:07 AM, said:
A few more considerations to help you with your decision:
-SLS has a "pass/no pass [grading] system with honors and distinctions, with a limit of 30% honors in lecture classes and 40% in seminars" (wikipedia). You'll have three fairly low stress years there! Edit: Just saw this was discussed on the previous page. I don't think straight P's is that bad. The class is pretty small. Also see this tls thread. An SLS student (hung jury) claims that straight P's result in multiple offers for most students. I think it's worth asking current SLS students about this.
-Anecdotally, everyone at SLS can get biglaw (good tls thread here). I wouldn't put too much stock into the nlj250+clerkship numbers for YHS; these students have opportunities that those charts just don't capture.
-You have a decent chance of landing SA positions after 1L and (more likely) 2L. These pay well; I've seen $3000/wk for 10-12 weeks (of course there are taxes). Still, you can make a small dent in your debt. I also read somewhere about a student at Y who worked somewhere throughout law school. Don't know if this is true, but given the grading policy, I imagine you could do it.
You can talk about some of this stuff with SLS students when you visit.
tl;dr Debt sucks, but SLS is a pretty good investment.
-SLS has a "pass/no pass [grading] system with honors and distinctions, with a limit of 30% honors in lecture classes and 40% in seminars" (wikipedia). You'll have three fairly low stress years there! Edit: Just saw this was discussed on the previous page. I don't think straight P's is that bad. The class is pretty small. Also see this tls thread. An SLS student (hung jury) claims that straight P's result in multiple offers for most students. I think it's worth asking current SLS students about this.
-Anecdotally, everyone at SLS can get biglaw (good tls thread here). I wouldn't put too much stock into the nlj250+clerkship numbers for YHS; these students have opportunities that those charts just don't capture.
-You have a decent chance of landing SA positions after 1L and (more likely) 2L. These pay well; I've seen $3000/wk for 10-12 weeks (of course there are taxes). Still, you can make a small dent in your debt. I also read somewhere about a student at Y who worked somewhere throughout law school. Don't know if this is true, but given the grading policy, I imagine you could do it.
You can talk about some of this stuff with SLS students when you visit.
tl;dr Debt sucks, but SLS is a pretty good investment.
The few HYS grads I've seen that came back to Canada often did so after graduating (i.e. they didn't take an position in US Biglaw.) The problem with that is I end up in the same (or worse) position than had I went to Osgoode and graduated with a fraction of the debt at SLS, albeit with a fancier school name on my resume. Debt is a huge consideration for me, considering that I turned down UofT already, and if it wasn't a concern I would have went there in a heartbeat over Osgoode.
My real goal in the long-term is to run my own practice (i.e. I have zero desire to become a Biglaw partner, and I'd prefer a better work/life balance for less pay, but I think I'd like the experience of Biglaw for a few years as the training and resources that many big firms have is second to none), and where I want to stay long-term is really going to matter. I'm looking beyond seeing which one is the better "golden ticket" to a high-paying job, considering that for the overwhelming majority of people, it only lasts 3-5 years at most. But again, I can't help but think where the school name might take me down the road (it might not matter so much in Canada, but if I wanted to go abroad and back to my ancestral homeland, degree prestige is a huge plus.)
Edited by tng11, 16 February 2012 - 06:34 AM.
#44
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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:16 PM
I just had to respond to this thread after the last couple posts you made tng11. Don't take what I am about to say as a personal attack or anything, it is actually meant to be constructive criticism that applies to you and other applicants.
In my opinion, you are so confused and putting way too much weight into a school analysis that is based on contradictory abstract notions of what you want to do. There are so many different points that you are making in your posts that I think, like many people who are not even in law school yet, you do not really actually know what you want to do.
You say your long-term goal is to run your own practice. If this is the case, it is a must that you go to a school as close as possible to where you actually want to run your practice so that you can start making professional and community connections ASAP. If you want to work in Canada, especially running your own practice, I don't even see why you are considering going to an American school.
Above, you mention articling with the OCA or SCC. Many Canadian students that go to Harvard, Stanford, and Yale do not get clerkships because of the schools they went to (although I am sure it plays a small role), they likely get those clerkships because they are smart and well-rounded to begin with. Hence, why they got into those schools in the first place.
One last point regarding this concept of so-called prestige that seems to be in the minds of law school applicants (trust me I was there at one point). I regret choosing the law school that I did. I chose U of T based partly on it having a great reputation, good faculty, and recommendations from a number of people. However, the school is a bad fit for me personally. I am a small town kind of person and going to school and living in Toronto is a frustrating experience. I guess, my main point here is that you should go to a school that fits you not the school that you think is prestigious or can get you a big law job. Becuase the bottom line is, if you go to a law school that you enjoy you are likely to do well and all those opportunities that you want will be open to you. Oppositely, if you go to a school that you think will get you a job or something you may end up not liking it there and perform poorly and close the doors to all those so-called opportunities.
Once you get into the daily grind of law school and realize that it is just more regular ordinary school, you will forget all about this prestige stuff and funny notions you had about law school as an applicant. If you go to a school that you like you will have so much fun and enjoy the experience. Law school isn't hard. You will do fine no matter where you go. But its what school you will enjoy that matters.
In my opinion, you are so confused and putting way too much weight into a school analysis that is based on contradictory abstract notions of what you want to do. There are so many different points that you are making in your posts that I think, like many people who are not even in law school yet, you do not really actually know what you want to do.
You say your long-term goal is to run your own practice. If this is the case, it is a must that you go to a school as close as possible to where you actually want to run your practice so that you can start making professional and community connections ASAP. If you want to work in Canada, especially running your own practice, I don't even see why you are considering going to an American school.
Above, you mention articling with the OCA or SCC. Many Canadian students that go to Harvard, Stanford, and Yale do not get clerkships because of the schools they went to (although I am sure it plays a small role), they likely get those clerkships because they are smart and well-rounded to begin with. Hence, why they got into those schools in the first place.
One last point regarding this concept of so-called prestige that seems to be in the minds of law school applicants (trust me I was there at one point). I regret choosing the law school that I did. I chose U of T based partly on it having a great reputation, good faculty, and recommendations from a number of people. However, the school is a bad fit for me personally. I am a small town kind of person and going to school and living in Toronto is a frustrating experience. I guess, my main point here is that you should go to a school that fits you not the school that you think is prestigious or can get you a big law job. Becuase the bottom line is, if you go to a law school that you enjoy you are likely to do well and all those opportunities that you want will be open to you. Oppositely, if you go to a school that you think will get you a job or something you may end up not liking it there and perform poorly and close the doors to all those so-called opportunities.
Once you get into the daily grind of law school and realize that it is just more regular ordinary school, you will forget all about this prestige stuff and funny notions you had about law school as an applicant. If you go to a school that you like you will have so much fun and enjoy the experience. Law school isn't hard. You will do fine no matter where you go. But its what school you will enjoy that matters.
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