43 replies to this topic

[tng11]

I'm stuck with one of the toughest decisions of my life:

Getting an offer from one of the HYS schools was one of the last things I was expecting this cycle, but it happened. I had convinced myself that I really wasn't interested working in the US, given the shaky economic situation and the non-negligible chance that I could be $150K+ in the hole coming out of CCN without a Biglaw job to pay off those loans.

Among the Canadian schools, it was a tough choice between Osgoode and UofT and I was ready to pick Osgoode a few days ago for financial reasons. To me, both schools had their benefits and drawbacks to me (PM me if you want these reasons), and the resulting price difference between the two was too significant to justify.

I would much prefer the climate in California, and the chance to make connections with people who will really have an impact on the world is a huge draw for me. It seems to open the doors wider to high-level clerkships, prestigious government positions and a wider range of Biglaw markets in the US (better placement in SF, LA and DC). The problem is that such a choice would contradict my reasons for choosing Osgoode, and the tuition plus cost of living will be even worse than UofT. Furthermore, my long-term goal is to stay in Canada for personal reasons.

Is the name of an HYS school worth going through the NCA process? Even if I were to stay in the US after graduation, I see myself only working for a few years in the US and wanting to return to Canada later on. As I understand it, there are a handful of clerks at the OCA, FCA and SCC that came from the top schools in the US, does going to one of these schools help make one stand out for these clerkships, and does it make transitioning back to Canada less of a hassle if one completes such a clerkship?

I know my thoughts are scattered right now, but reality still hasn't sunk in and I really have no clue what I'm going to do.

Edited by tng11, 26 January 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[davedavedave]

For how many years would you want to work Biglaw in the US after graduation?

[Phoenix-Wright]

Woah, congrats on your acceptance.

This is clearly a huge decision. A HYS Law degree certainly does have that special, priceless status to it. However, I feel that since you say that you want to work in Canada, and that finances are a concern, Osgoode seems like a more logical choice.

Moreover, I would honestly ask myself - would I be able to compete with my Ivy Leauge/Stanford peers and finish in the top of my class, or would I fall somewhere along the median, or even below.

[BetterCallSaul]

The NCA can process be a bitch. This 2008 cover story from Precedent illustrates why: http://www.lawandsty...d=213&Itemid=9
9

Edited by BetterCallSaul, 26 January 2012 - 08:19 AM.

[Stupor]

Phoenix-Wright, on 26 January 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

Moreover, I would honestly ask myself - would I be able to compete with my Ivy Leauge/Stanford peers and finish in the top of my class, or would I fall somewhere along the median, or even below.

The grading scheme at Stanford makes this a non issue.

If you want to stay in Canada, then Osgoode is really the logical choice...as painful as it would feel to turn down Stanford. The NCA process won't be the biggest hassle; the huge debt load will be.

[BetterCallSaul]

^ Even if Op wants to work in U.S. biglaw for a few years?

[guy123]

Would you mind sharing your stats??

[KER_2012]

First of all, congrats tng, I know you've really wanted this acceptance and you definitely deserve it!

Personally, I think it makes more logical sense to go to school in the country you want to practice in long term. However, going to Standford kind of seems like your dream. If you understand the NCA process and are willing to deal with that in addition to the exorbitant US tuition fees, then you should go. This is a great opportunity for you to experience somewhere new if the benefits outweigh the drawbacks for you.

[erinl2]

If you were going to pick Osgoode over U of T for financial reasons, it makes no sense to be willing to take on the amount of debt you'd have to in order to attend a U.S. school. Think very carefully, especially with the current state of the economy and legal community in the U.S., before taking on a large amount of debt. Even if you were interested in a biglaw position, which I'm not sure you are, there is no guarantee that you'd get one. Everyone going in to those very large entering classes of the top U.S. schools has the idea that they're going to get a job at Simpson Thacher upon graduation but we all know that it doesn't happen for the majority, let alone everyone. If you want to work in Canada, it makes little sense to go to a U.S. law school. As to making connections with 'people who will have an impact on the world', well, I have to say that that sounds a little idealistic. Why would you think that possible at Stanford but not at U of T or Osgoode? For clerkships, it will not give you an advantage to be coming from Stanford. What matters will be the same things in your application materials that matter if you are at U of T or McGill or UOttawa or UBC or Osgoode.

[jin45]

Are you at all interested in a dual JD? If not, I'd say go with your heart.

If you are, however, my hunch is that you can pull it off. I mean, I see people pull off tailored JD-PhD programs very frequently. Osgoode will be open to the idea, since they only recently canceled a dual-JD program with NYU. Stanford might be a harder sell, but I don't see why not. Remind them that Osgoode canceled their program with NYU. Tell them that people in your situation have no good options left. You'd have to go to American or Colorado to find another Canadian-American dual JD, and those schools just can't compete with the awesomeness of Stanford. Help them understand the nightmare that is the NCA process, but also point out that Osgoode has a world-class faculty that would enrich your understanding of law and open up incredible opportunities. Do this in person, if possible. I think you could set up a custom 2-2 program.

I understand that this is probably not the best option financially. But if you were interested in this for education purposes, or even just wanted to see one more option on the table, it doesn't hurt to ask!

Edited by jin45, 26 January 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[muffins]

Study in Canada. Then you don't have to live in the US.

[whereverjustice]

jin45, on 26 January 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

I think you could set up a custom 2-2 program.

Recent Osgoode alumnus here. FWIW, I think this is very unlikely.

[buns]

Congrats on the S acceptance!!!

I think this all comes down to where you'd like to work and what you want to do. If you want to work in Canada, I'd stay here, if you would like to work in the US then head off to S. If you want academia I could also see S > UofT also. Overall do what will make you happy though -- I would give S a strong look if you think that you'll always wonder "what if" if you don't go... that would suck. From your other posts though I know you are already very cognizant of how volatile the legal market is down there. The NCA process is gruelling, I have a friend going through it right now and finding articles is difficult sometimes even for US grads of top schools (granted, S is S and my friend is a MVPB grad, not sure how much stigma relief S provides)

As an aside, I am biased but I would never pick Osgoode over U of T. I don't know your situation and perhaps you'll be able to live at home if you choose Osgoode, but it isn't much cheaper than U of T at all. I am paying for school myself (as it seems like you are too) and faced this same decision. U of T has incredible financial aid, and my adjusted tuition this year for example is $14k! Their formula is quite generous so your parents would have to be quite wealthy in order to not qualify for tuition reduction. I use a line of credit for tuition, and UofT financial aid will also pay for your interest while you're in school!

If you want Toronto Biglaw this is a no brainer, as you'd be giving up about a 20% chance by choosing Osgoode (~50% placement vs. ~30% on any given year). If not biglaw, UofT's backend debt relief program is second-to-none which will allow you to handle any debt should you choose a career in the public interest or another career with a low starting salary. On it's face U of T is expensive, but as a broke kid taking on the debtload coming here, the financial aid is so generous and the program is very accessible for those paying for school themselves in my opinion. Just putting it out there in case financial aid/BDRP were two things you hadn't considered before. Feel free to PM me if you wanna know more about how all that works.

[mcakes]

Congratulations tng11, that is very exciting news! If it was me I would stay in Canada although I understand that turning down HYS for Osgoode is definitely not a decision to be taken lightly.

[staffer]

Just a thought - have you considered doing one year at HYS and transfering to Osgoode after? You'd graduate with a Canadian degree, probably not have too much trouble transferring from a T14 school, and rather than NCA you'd probably just have to take a couple of first year courses (maybe just constitutional?)

Prospective employers would see on your resume that you're a person who was accepted to HYS and you can simply explain the transfer by saying (honestly) that you wanted to live and practice in Canada

Edited by staffer, 26 January 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[tng11]

Wow, lots of responses here.

On the financing issue: I went and had a talk with one of the banks about getting loans in the US, and the bank said that while it was possible, it would be considered a personal loan with a higher interest rate as I am not a US citizen or permanent resident. So that's a big drawback as not only would my debt load be a lot worse, I would be paying quite a bit of interest on top of that. I have been told that Stanford does have an amazing LRAP program, but I'm not sure if that's applicable to foreign nationals as what I would have technically isn't a student loan in the US.

Furthermore, the question of what I want to do is still up in the air. I'm just a naive 0L, but I am somewhat certain that I am interested in Biglaw, but leaning more towards litigation. If I had to choose a US market, I would be the most interested in Washington DC, as litigation involving the SEC and other federal regulatory, as well as appellate matters are mostly handled in that jurisdiction. Of course, the problem is that the DC market is extremely competitive and even though HYS seems to do well in that market, we're still talking about the top of the class that find positions there. The other default option would be NYC Biglaw, which I'm not really all that interested in when compared to Bay St., considering how much more cutthroat and stressful the environment is for the extra pay (going by the high billables and large associate classes, plus $160K in NYC isn't all that much better than $90-$100K in Toronto). Even though Stanford does seem to place very well into Biglaw, being at the bottom of the class is a bad position to be in. Furthermore, when the economy starts going sour and firms are looking to trim the fat, it won't matter what school you come from. So there's multiple levels of risk here, first is gambling on the small chance I might make it into the market I want, then actually staying there, whether it's on my own incompetence or as a consequence of the economy. Furthermore, I expect that being Canadian will work against me when dealing with firms there, considering the complications involving the visa process while these firms can still have their pick of very qualified US citizens.

As for grading and competition, even though they operate on an Pass/Fail designation, in practice the presence of the "Honours" and "Low Pass" grades basically make the system a re-worded version of the traditional grading system without the refining +/- grades. Getting straight Ps at Stanford is still an unideal spot to be in. The idea of competing with best and the brightest students from elite schools in the US is also worrisome, but the same can be said for both UofT and Osgoode which is also filled to the brim with the top students in undergrad, many of which probably could have succeeded at these elite American UGs anyways.

So really, the logical choice for me to make is Osgoode considering the issue of money, and my desire to stay in Canada. It's just terribly difficult to get over the thought of me turning down such a prestigious school, one that I feel (likely naively) will have a greater "wow" factor on my resume, even though I realize that school names don't count for much once you've been practicing for a few years, so it might not be very beneficial to my career and create a lot of additional hassle (i.e. going through NCA).

I realize how irrational everything seems once I write it down on paper, but I just hope that others can understand how much of an honour and a dream come true it is to be offered admission to Stanford, coming from a family that had very little education.

I would take solace in the fact that if I were to turn down SLS for Osgoode, I would not be the first to do so. One of my classmates was accepted to Harvard, and he ended up going to Osgoode based on almost the exact same reasons as me.

Edited by tng11, 26 January 2012 - 11:08 AM.

[Stupor]

JD/JD would simply delay a decision that you will still have to make, for a horribly expensive price (one more year of tuition + a year of lost earnings). Don't do it.

For your goals, it really doesn't make sense to go to Stanford. I sympathize.

Frame that admission letter and put it on your office wall (above your diploma from U of T/Osgoode) when you start working.

Edited by Stupor, 26 January 2012 - 11:29 AM.

[QuincyWagstaff]

Sounds like you've come to a rational decision. I'll look for a guy cycling through DT Toronto traffic in a Stanford Law acceptance package T-shirt.

[jmcazabon]

QuincyWagstaff, on 26 January 2012 - 11:23 AM, said:

Sounds like you've come to a rational decision. I'll look for a guy cycling through DT Toronto traffic in a Stanford Law acceptance package T-shirt.

as an aside, do people legit get free t-shirts upon being accepted to Stanford (my apologies if this was just sarcasm I didn't understand, I just get easily excited about mundane things).

also, sadly, osgoode is not downtown, which is almost the sole reason it was never even close to my radar. One of the uglier campuses I've seen (not that I've seen that many).

Edited by jmcazabon, 26 January 2012 - 02:58 PM.

[Rashabon]

Unless you want to stay in the US for somewhere between 5 and 10 years at a minimum before returning, it's likely never worth it to attend a US school with the goal of returning to Canada.

Nobody in the Canadian legal employment market truly cares about an American JD to the extent that it will give you preferential status over a Canadian JD. The cost and hassle of completing the NCA process is also frustrating, and on top of that, you also lose the ability to make connections in the market you hope to work in, in Canada.

I should also note that if you really want to be doing appellate level work and litigation with the SEC (not as common as you might think), you likely won't sniff the meatiest parts of the litigation process for a number of years of practice.

[tng11]

After having 2 nights to sleep over it, I'm more comfortable with picking Osgoode over Stanford, as crazy as a comparison as it may sound. Maybe the Stanford degree is shinier and may allow me to do "shinier" things like making it to a V5 NYC firm. But at the end of the day, it's a more convoluted and expensive route to what I really want to do, which is working in Toronto. I can't fathom graduating fresh from law school and basically having a mortgage without a house to show for it. Even a $160K job in the US isn't that appealing enough to match that level of debt, let alone the non-negligible chance the economy could sour and ending up with no job plus that mortgage would basically destroy my life. If I go to Osgoode, not only is it the best route to where I want to be, I can graduate with a reasonable debt load (hence alleviating stress of working in law, which is stressful enough by itself), and in the worst case scenario (i.e. I totally bomb LS) I still don't have a mortgage sized debt load to worry about for the rest of my life.

I'm going to set that acceptance letter aside (once it arrives), and hopefully 4 years from now I can look back and pat myself on the back for making the right choice.

[KER_2012]

Tng, I'm sure this was not an easy choice for you to make, but I think you're making the right decision. You're being extremely realistic about your future and that's incredibly important. I am sure you'll do extremely well at Osgoode and not graduate with massive amounts of debt!

[theiva4]

so you are picking Oz over UofT?

[Woo Harris]

Mature choice, and I think ultimately the right one. Stanford is certainly appealing because it looks like basically law school in paradise, but its great that you're realistic about the bet route for success in Canada. I'm sure you will put enough pressure on yourself to succeed and as you said a mortgage sized debt load would only increase that pressure and that's probably not a shadow you want hanging over you the whole time.

I think that acceptance letter will signify an impressive accomplishment in your life and not a source of regret for not having gone there.

[tng11]

theiva4, on 27 January 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

so you are picking Oz over UofT?

I'm 90% sure, mostly for financial reasons.

[Geon]

At first I thought you were crazy, but after reading your post, it seems very logical. The difference you will pay in living on residence at U of T alone is enough to justify osgoode

[String]

Bloody hell, this is a tricky decision. Pretty good one to have to make though - congrats! One thing I would definitely advise: talk to Dean Deal about all of your concerns. Ask her if she can put you in touch with any Canadians who've been through Stanford law. Ask her about how debt relief works for foreign nationals. Take the travel stipend and go to the ASW. Obvious advice, of course, but I know how easy it can be to turn all these things over in your mind and agonise and agonise when just a short conversation with people in the know can easily clear your mind.

My two cents is this: if you definitely, 100% want to stay in Canada for the long term, then Oz/U of T is almost certainly the right choice. The fact that you've been accepted to Stanford should make you feel reasonably confident (as reasonably confident as anyone can be going into something alien and new and mildly unpredictable) that you'll do well in law school and be able to forge a very successful legal career in Canada. But if there's even a little bit of doubt about where you see yourself living in 10-20 years time, the decision is much trickier in my view. Yes the debt is huge, but by and large it seems Stanford law grads don't appear to have much trouble financing that debt in the long term, and their debt relief program is excellent (and far better than U of T's, for example). Stanford's class sizes are small, and even though the legal market is sick, there are still objectively a lot of biglaw jobs out there, and Stanford students are at the top of the hiring pile.

Of course you'll never know what opportunities you might have had somewhere else wherever you pick, but try to get as much info as you can about the different kinds of things alumni 10 years out of Oz/U of T/ Stanford are doing now. A hell of a lot of 0Ls say they wanna do biglaw in X city when the reality is that a high proportion of young lawyers drop out of biglaw after a few years because they hate it and end up doing something else, somewhere else, whether it be specifically a legal job or otherwise. You might find a couple of stories there that sway you one way or the other.

At least the great thing is you can't really make a bad decision here! I think it's difficult separating the idea of Stanford from the idea of some kind of permanent vacation (which, obviously, it sort of isn't), so I'd be wary of the whole California!!!! thing. Also, if you're a city kid you might find 'the farm' a bit stifling on occasion.

At the same time, I know if it were me there would be days when I'd be getting off the frickin York University rocket having just dropped a timbit on my crotch, frozen-assed and red-eyed at the sight of another pair of winter boots going the way of the road salt monster, thinking what...in god's name...did I do....?

[staffer]

Geon, on 30 January 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

At first I thought you were crazy, but after reading your post, it seems very logical. The difference you will pay in living on residence at U of T alone is enough to justify osgoode

There's really no reason to live in U of T res, unless you absolutely hate making your own food. The building is surrounded by nice and affordable apartment buildings. For a fair bit less than the cost of res, you could get a much nicer 1 bedroom apartment. For thousands less per year you could get a 2 bedroom and a roommate or live uptown and have a 20 minute subway ride to school.

[italia12]

A bit OT but I do not think you NEED to buy a meal plan in U of T rez. Grad House is a monthly rental it seems and is very competitively priced compared to other options on the market (again just my opinion). I think I read something like mid 600s-high 800s a month depending on the room in question. I would be surprised if you could get much cheaper than that in the area surrounding U of T.

[tng11]

String, on 31 January 2012 - 06:17 PM, said:

At the same time, I know if it were me there would be days when I'd be getting off the frickin York University rocket having just dropped a timbit on my crotch, frozen-assed and red-eyed at the sight of another pair of winter boots going the way of the road salt monster, thinking what...in god's name...did I do....?

You know, I had the exact same feeling for 4 years when I did my undergrad. I remember at convocation I said under my breath "Thank god I'm never coming back." What changed for me was I realized that Oz is a different place than the rest of York, but its biggest problem is still its location. What I asked myself was "Is the location worth $XX,XXX?" since I found an equal number of likes/dislikes at both schools, and many qualities which were very close.

Given a choice, I really would prefer to stay in Canada. I know it's a bit early to say which Biglaw market I might prefer, but the way Biglaw is structured in the US along with the high COL despite the $160K salaries makes it unappealing to me. I feel that what happened in 2008 could happen on an even worse scale in the next few years, and the first thing to go are associates when profitability starts going south. At least the way Toronto firms are structured makes such a scenario less likely, with far fewer associates per partner. It's too early to even say if I desire to work in Biglaw, and I'll have some time over 1L to figure out what I really want to do. Plus there are a number of personal reasons (e.g. family) that I would prefer to stay here. I wouldn't have a problem with working in the US if one could come back at any time they wished, which doesn't seem to be realistic considering the NCA process or that firms don't seem to hire people who've practiced in the US until they've gotten some considerable experience.

Maybe I'm also risk averse, because I do think there's a chance I could end up bottom of the class anywhere I go. Despite the SLS name, being last in the class there would be a lot more disastrous than being last at Osgoode for me. At least at the latter, I would have a fraction of the debt I would have in the former.

I will be milking the travel stipend and going to the ASW. I know its easy to romanticize California, but come on, at least there's no snow there like Toronto!

Edited by tng11, 01 February 2012 - 07:03 AM.