23 replies to this topic

[amgine]

Hi all,

New to the forums, and thought I'd kick off my posting by asking for opinions out of the three schools listed. Been reading the existing threads, and wanted some more personalized opinions.

Some background on me:

I did my undergrad in poli sci, and have always found constitutional/human rights law to be interesting. I'm not really sure what field I would like to practice in, but have interests in const/human rights/social justice, environmental and natural resources, energy, Aboriginal, and a lukewarm interest in criminal. I haven't been accepted anywhere yet (fingers crossed for sooner rather than later ) but these three are my top choices. GPA of 3.0, and B2/L2 3.55 (my first couple years weren't great), LSAT score of 164. UofT may not be even an issue, but I was advised that I should apply anyway since I've applied in the Access category when possible (I'm visually impaired, and it definitely came up in my personal statement) and that this can change things for admissions. Never been that interested in Big Law, so placement rates aren't that important to me, as long as most graduates do in fact manage to find jobs in an area of choice. I'd like to stay in Toronto for school, but am not set on wanting to live/work here permanently. My current preference would be UofT or Osgoode, then the second of those two, then Queen's. Can't really decide whether Osgoode or UofT would be better given my interests and goals.

Advice and input would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

[whereverjustice]

Step 1 is always, always, always to browse the course offerings for each law school. Here is Osgoode's, UT's, and Queen's...'s. Take an hour or so and really go through them. If you're lucky, one school will stand out as a particularly good fit for your interests.

[Fletcher Reed]

If I had to guess I'd say you probably won't get into U of T and since you want to stay in Toronto, go to Osgoode if you get in there obviously. If not, you're left with Queens (which you'll easily get into in the regular category even, right?).

If you do get into U of T go there unless the cost it too much for you.

Quite simple really.

[conge]

Visit the schools as well, if possible. I was at Osgoode recently, and while a top-notch school, it's in the middle of nowwhere...an ugly nowhere at that. UoT campus is really nice. So is Queen's. This may impact your decision.

[amgine]

whereverjustice, thanks for those links. I had already taken a look (though not an hour) at course offerings, and neither UofT or Osgoode seemed to really jump out as a clear winner. As for visiting, conge, you're not the first to recommend it - thanks for the reminder though.

If I were to throw Western into the mix, does it change anything? My sense is they're pretty towards business.

[Woo Harris]

I think unless you are very attracted to London, Western is not the best for your stated goals. I firmly believe you can go almost anywhere in Canada and be successful. If you like the City of Toronto and all it has to offer, you have two outstanding schools to pick from if accepted. Western is also a great school but in the case of your stated preferences does not add too too much that you wouldn't get from your listed schools (with the exception of perhaps being cheaper than the Toronto Schools)

[tng11]

It's a bit harder to justify UofT if you aren't interested in doing Bay St., but I would imagine they are still strong in the fields you mentioned you're interested in. I was told that beyond course offerings, you should check out the clinics that the school offers. If accepted, you need to visit those schools to see if it's a right "fit" for you. People do go to Osgoode over UofT because they may feel that the student body is a better match for their interests. Bear in mind though, Osgoode's location might not be attractive to everybody, but they do have a nice building, and the campus isn't that bad as Osgoode is somewhat in its own silo anyways.

If you want to stay in Toronto, I would assume that you prefer big cities over smaller ones, where Queen's and Western would be located in. Tuition at both these places aren't much cheaper than Osgoode (although COL is higher), and if you prefer Toronto, it's probably worth the extra tuition if it makes you happy. Once you've narrowed it down, ask yourself if you prefer going to school downtown, and if it's worth the extra tuition, or would rather commute, or stay on the York campus?

[amgine]

Thanks for the insights, guys. I'll keep the advice in mind as I continue the research

Hope I don't have to wait too much longer for responses...

[Kimi]

I have a very similar dilemma to you amgine! Poli. Sci major, not interested in Bay St really, but have a wide enough interest in types of law (labour? environmental? constitutional?) that it makes it hard to pick between the three schools based on the type of law I'd want to study, since the courses at all schools seem good and interesting when I look at them. Osgoode jumped out as having more courses, but the others also seemed to have enough to keep me busy with things that sounded fun.

Right now I'm leading towards Queen's because of cost (they offered me a scholarship, which Osgoode and UofT did not, making the difference in price more dramatic than it would otherwise be) and general indifference on the other aspects seems to make cost a natural tie-break.

I have a really hard time telling which one would be the best 'fit' given that I don't know what I'm looking for. I am mildly concerned UofT would be largely full of business-y Bay St. oriented people, which I'm sure isn't exactly accurate, but given their placement rates on Bay St. is probably not completely false either.

Meanwhile, the package I got from Queen's indicated they had the highest articling placement rates in the Province, which reassured me that they could find people placements/jobs as well as any other school, if not to the same degree as Toronto in more competitive Bay St market.

So not a great answer, but I definitely understand the tough decision! So many conflicting factors...

Edited by Kimi, 17 January 2012 - 04:30 PM.

[5khh]

I highly doubt Queen's article placment rate is superior to U of T's. I don't know why Queen's makes such a claim.
As was mentioned above, it seems like a clear choice to me too: U of T, if you get in; then, Osgoode; then, Queen's.

[JudgeDredd]

5khh, on 07 February 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I highly doubt Queen's article placment rate is superior to U of T's. I don't know why Queen's makes such a claim.
As was mentioned above, it seems like a clear choice to me too: U of T, if you get in; then, Osgoode; then, Queen's.

queen's placement was discussed here...

http://lawstudents.c...er-than-u-of-t/

[8idl]

5khh, on 07 February 2012 - 09:57 PM, said:

I highly doubt Queen's article placment rate is superior to U of T's. I don't know why Queen's makes such a claim.
As was mentioned above, it seems like a clear choice to me too: U of T, if you get in; then, Osgoode; then, Queen's.

Just because you doubt something it must be false? There is likely some truth in Queen's claim that they have the best placement rate, otherwise they wouldn't make that assertion. I read the discussion in the other thread so there's not much else to discuss but for posterity: sure UofT undoubtedly places better in biglaw but that's not the only place that grads go.

[CaptainCrunchMan]

8idl, on 08 February 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Just because you doubt something it must be false? There is likely some truth in Queen's claim that they have the best placement rate, otherwise they wouldn't make that assertion. I read the discussion in the other thread so there's not much else to discuss but for posterity: sure UofT undoubtedly places better in biglaw but that's not the only place that grads go.

Just fyi, if you look at articling positions at the elite firms, the order for Ontario schools is UofT--Western--Oz---Queens--Ottawa--Windsor. So if you happen to change your mind and want to do biglaw instead, you'd be placing yourself at a disadvantage by going to Queens.

Re: the placement rate argument, if you look at the breakdown of unplaced students by school, most have 3-8 people. Really doesn't mean anything if Queens happened to place two more people.

[8idl]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I understand that elite firm placement rates are better at UofT and that the differences between the schools in terms of placement rates period are probably negligible. I just wanted to point out that there was likely some truth in Queen's claim otherwise they wouldn't have made it cause it felt like 5khh was implying that Queen's was lying or something. It's a really finnicky detail that doesn't matter and I didn't need to make a big deal out of it. Sorry to derail the thread.

[johnalm]

I know Western has good placement rate. How come it ranks so low though? Also, I noticed Queen's has an incredible faculty with profs doing LLM in Harvard, Ox/Cam, Yale/Stan/NYU: I cant see the same quality in Western. Should that be an issue of concern?

[BetterCallSaul]

CaptainCrunchMan, on 08 February 2012 - 10:18 AM, said:

Just fyi, if you look at articling positions at the elite firms, the order for Ontario schools is UofT--Western--Oz---Queens--Ottawa--Windsor. So if you happen to change your mind and want to do biglaw instead, you'd be placing yourself at a disadvantage by going to Queens.

Hogwash.

This line of reasoning misrepresents precisely what the ultra vires (and other) placement rates tell us.

UofT places better than Western/Oz/Queens because, in general, a higher proportion of accomplished/very smart students attend UofT (due to entry barriers, reputation, etc). But if those same students had gone to another school - say Queens- it is very likely the would have ended up with the same 2L/articling position. In other words, going to Queens does not in itself constitute a disadvantage in the same way that being mediocre as a student or having an unimpressive resume does.

Users of this forum tend to overemphasize the importance of school 'brand' when it comes to Canadian biglaw hiring.

[tng11]

BetterCallSaul, on 08 February 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Hogwash.

This line of reasoning misrepresents precisely what the ultra vires (and other) placement rates tell us.

UofT places better than Western/Oz/Queens because, in general, a higher proportion of accomplished/very smart students attend UofT (due to entry barriers, reputation, etc). But if those same students had gone to another school - say Queens- it is very likely the would have ended up with the same 2L/articling position. In other words, going to Queens does not in itself constitute a disadvantage in the same way that being mediocre as a student or having an unimpressive resume does.

Users of this forum tend to overemphasize the importance of school 'brand' when it comes to Canadian biglaw hiring.

+1

I'm glad that there are other people that realize that a placement rate in itself tells us absolutely nothing. The UofT name in itself doesn't land a mediocre student a job, the same way that a UofT grad who got a desirable articling position wouldn't have been left unemployed on the mere basis of the Osgoode/Queen's/Western name. If you actually listen to practicing lawyers at all levels, the school name isn't nearly the make-or-break factor, even though it's true that firms dig deeper into the UofT class because the school tend to take a larger pool of individuals with impressive credentials, whereas there's probably less of the same calibre of students at the other schools.

In short, if you were good enough to get into UofT, your academic/EC accomplishments were likely very impressive, and the school name isn't going to shut you out of anything you want as long as you keep it up.

[Bike Tester]

whereverjustice, on 16 January 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

Step 1 is always, always, always to browse the course offerings for each law school. Here is Osgoode's, UT's, and Queen's...'s. Take an hour or so and really go through them. If you're lucky, one school will stand out as a particularly good fit for your interests.

Out of curiosity, how many of those courses does one generally get to pick per semester?

[whereverjustice]

For Osgoode, you'll see in those charts that each course is 3-4 credits. In second and third year, you need sixty credits (combined both years) to graduate. That's four semesters, so an average of 15 credits per semester - about four courses.

Heading into each year you fill out a 'ballot' in which you rank the courses you're interested in taking. IIRC I got all the courses I requested, in both years. It's a pretty small proportion of classes that are actually oversubscribed.

Obviously if you're doing a clinical or other special for-credit program, that's going to reduce the number of traditional courses you get to choose.

[5khh]

8idl, on 08 February 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

Just because you doubt something it must be false? There is likely some truth in Queen's claim that they have the best placement rate, otherwise they wouldn't make that assertion. I read the discussion in the other thread so there's not much else to discuss but for posterity: sure UofT undoubtedly places better in biglaw but that's not the only place that grads go.

Based on your defensiveness, I suspect you are 0L who will be attending Queen's Law or perhaps who chose to go to Queen's law over U of T? I am just curious...

Edited by 5khh, 09 February 2012 - 10:40 PM.

[asfxxx]

I always wonder how people who choose to attend a law school based on its stellar placement rate feel when they walk into work their first day and discover that their peers and co-workers went to "inferior" schools, wound up with the same job at the same salary, and managed to save $30,000 in tuition along the way.

hm.

Edited by asfxxx, 10 February 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Rashabon]

When you find someone who picked a school based on placement rate please let me know because I have yet to find one.

[Pyke]

BetterCallSaul, on 08 February 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Hogwash.

This line of reasoning misrepresents precisely what the ultra vires (and other) placement rates tell us.

UofT places better than Western/Oz/Queens because, in general, a higher proportion of accomplished/very smart students attend UofT (due to entry barriers, reputation, etc). But if those same students had gone to another school - say Queens- it is very likely the would have ended up with the same 2L/articling position. In other words, going to Queens does not in itself constitute a disadvantage in the same way that being mediocre as a student or having an unimpressive resume does.

Users of this forum tend to overemphasize the importance of school 'brand' when it comes to Canadian biglaw hiring.

Disagree completely. The average student at U of T is simply stronger than the average student at those schools, and while there is a self selection bias at play to an extent, firms will attribute that bias in your favour in the hiring process yielding better results than you would otherwise get. U of T consistently easily outplaces those schools as a result.

You can be a mediocre student at U of T (or even below average) and have better opportunities than a 2nd quartile student at Queens or Ottawa.

-=-=-

Re: the OP, I don't think you'll get into Toronto, and you may not get into Osgoode. Queens is a maybe. You should have applied to Western and Windsor. A 3.00 gpa is low (even with a 3.55 best two), and a 164 LSAT, while solid enough for admission, is not exactly blowing the doors off your competition.

[zzzzz]

Pyke, on 10 February 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

The average student at U of T is simply stronger than the average student at those schools, and while there is a self selection bias at play to an extent, firms will attribute that bias in your favour in the hiring process yielding better results than you would otherwise get. U of T consistently easily outplaces those schools as a result.

Accurate, so long as you are talking about strength in LSAT and undergrad GPA. That doesn't necessarily equate with strength as a law student or strength as a lawyer. I've met and worked with a ton of people from each of the Ontario schools and a few of the non-Ontario schools. In those experiences, there was no discernable difference in apparent competence, professionalism or skill. This could be because these weren't "average" students as you put it; but there is absolutely no conclusive evidence whatsoever that one particular school produces better law students or lawyers than another. All we can say conclusively is that school A has students with higher GPAs or LSATs than students at school B, or that school A places better than school B. Neither necessarily proves that school A produces "better" graduates.

Pyke, on 10 February 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

You can be a mediocre student at U of T (or even below average) and have better opportunities than a 2nd quartile student at Queens or Ottawa.

I assume you're basing this on Bay St placement stats since you wouldn't be silly enough to rely on anecdotal information. If you're relying on Bay St placement stats, then you should make it clear that you are assuming that the same number of people are applying to these jobs from each of the schools you've mentioned, and you should state that you are defining "better opportunities" as "Bay St opportunities". I'm not sure either is accurate.

Pyke, on 10 February 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Re: the OP, I don't think you'll get into Toronto, and you may not get into Osgoode. Queens is a maybe. You should have applied to Western and Windsor. A 3.00 gpa is low (even with a 3.55 best two), and a 164 LSAT, while solid enough for admission, is not exactly blowing the doors off your competition.

I'm not sure why you're implying that getting into western is easier than getting into queens or osgoode. Western's latest admission stats provide that its entrance stats are higher than queen's and a tiny bit higher than osgoode's. There aren't material differences; but it's silly to suggest that entry into these schools is more challenging than entry into western.


UofT is an absolutely great school. It doesn't require some of its graduates to exaggerate or misrepresent statistics on the school. Rarely do Diplock or erin2l or any of the other UofT grads offer anything more than that "UofT is a great school". When you start getting into these claims that a student with average X from UofT will get a job more easily than a student with average Y from school B, or when you start equating GPA/LSAT with "strength" as a law student or lawyer, you're doing a disservice to both the person asking the question and UofT. I'm not sure why you're constantly touting the brilliance of average or below average students from UofT. Or maybe I do.