27 replies to this topic

[12192008]

Based on UofT's JD Student Financial Aid Application, my parental's income tax notice of assessment is required to apply.

I haven't spoken to my father in four years and there is no way I'm getting his tax statements from him. My mother doesn't work.

Does the fact that I can't get my father's tax statements mean I can't apply for financial assistance?

[davedavedave]

This is a question you'd have to ask U of T directly.

If you are completely independent from your father then his income should have no relevance. My girlfriend applied for OSAP last year, and being in a similar boat as you, did not give any information re her father. Common sense would dictate it would be the same for U of T (alhtough everything is not always dictated by common sense).

[Stupor]

davedavedave, on 13 January 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

This is a question you'd have to ask U of T directly.

+1

davedavedave, on 13 January 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

If you are completely independent from your father then his income should have no relevance. My girlfriend applied for OSAP last year, and being in a similar boat as you, did not give any information re her father. Common sense would dictate it would be the same for U of T (alhtough everything is not always dictated by common sense).

OSAP considers someone independent 4 years after high school. U of T Law considers you dependent until (and including) age 29.

[davedavedave]

Stupor, on 13 January 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

U of T Law considers you dependent until (and including) age 29.

Really? A 29 year old who is still dependent on his or her parents should be ashamed of themselves, lol.

[tng11]

davedavedave, on 13 January 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Really? A 29 year old who is still dependent on his or her parents should be ashamed of themselves, lol.

Yeah, UofT's financial aid program leaves a heck of a lot to be desired. People who have parents that have a high income, yet don't provide support get the shaft, especially those that are still in undergrad or are only a year or two out.

[JessieL]

Ditto - haven't spoken to my father in 5 years and while I know where he lives, his info should be completely irrelevant to UT... It's also a pretty safe bet he didn't even file his taxes...

When I received the call back in Dec, they said the welcome package would be sent Jan. 9th so hopefully I receive it soon and then I'll inquire re: my father.

12192008, please update us if you speak with UT Admissions.

Edited by JessieL, 13 January 2012 - 07:04 PM.

[12192008]

I've emailed UofT and will update you once I receive a response.

It would be incredibly harmful if I could not receive financial aid because of this. I assume UofT must be able to understand that someone else's tax returns do not belong to me and I therefore cannot force someone to give them to me!

[12192008]

Strange. I got the call on the 11th, she said they'd post it the next day, and I received it today.

I'm sure it's just taking a little longer since you're in BC - hopefully you'll get it soon!
I was very happy with the information provided in the welcome package (especially after receiving Osgoode's).

JessieL, on 13 January 2012 - 07:03 PM, said:

When I received the call back in Dec, they said the welcome package would be sent Jan. 9th so hopefully I receive it soon and then I'll inquire re: my father.

[12192008]

Even worse than that: UofT considers you 100% dependent if you're under 30, 75% dependent if 30-34, 50% dependent if you're 35-39, and 25% dependent if you're 40 and above.

So even a 60 year old applying would have to provide his or her parents' tax returns!

Stupor, on 13 January 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

U of T Law considers you dependent until (and including) age 29.

Edited by 12192008, 13 January 2012 - 07:37 PM.

[Kimi]

For UofT, the financial aid pacakage bolds the sentence "Parental income information is required from all financial aid applicants." Their stated rationale is that "students from low income backgrounds often have personal histories or circumstances which make a law school education less obtainable. The inclusion of parental income provides a means of accounting for these differences and ensuring accessibility." None of that looks promising for people who don't have access to parental tax info, although obviously you should still contact them though for more personalized advice, as there are clauses such as "If you feel that your financial aid award does not reflect the special circumstances you face, you may appeal within 30 days."

I think UofT's system is still preferable to many other places -- like Osgoode, where they basically just flat out ask whether you are financially independent from your parents when you apply there initially. At least UofT acknowledges scales of grey in dependence, and doesn't encourage the blatant twisting of the truth that Osgoode does. Because many people who would call themselves financially independent (esp. in the knowledge it would make them look needier) may well be somewhat independent, but still have significant familial support and dependence that is hard to quantify/prove, yet is incredibly advantageous to those people.

Obviously it sucks in certain circumstances, but I feel like you can't design a foolproof system... esp. given the inherent financial incentives of each person to game the system, however it is designed.

[Stupor]

12192008, on 13 January 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Even worse than that: UofT considers you 100% dependent if you're under 30, 75% dependent if 30-34, 50% dependent if you're 35-39, and 25% dependent if you're 40 and above.

So even a 60 year old applying would have to provide his or her parents' tax returns!

You are right. I think it is Stanford (my dream school) or Harvard that deems students independent at 30.

Considering people 30 and over as dependent on parental income is pretty silly. The middle and upper middle class is truly getting squeezed at UofT - only the rich and the poor will be able to afford to go there.

[tng11]

Stupor, on 14 January 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

You are right. I think it is Stanford (my dream school) or Harvard that deems students independent at 30.

Considering people 30 and over as dependent on parental income is pretty silly. The middle and upper middle class is truly getting squeezed at UofT - only the rich and the poor will be able to afford to go there.

If I'm not mistaken though, the line where you don't get any financial aid is a parental income of $250,000. That's a pretty high bar, considering that the median family income hovers around $70,000. But considering that UofT's tuition is so high, a lot of people in the middle get screwed over.

That sliding scale of parental contributions is borderline stupidity. I was expecting it to start dropping off at around 24, and decline to almost zero by the time of 30 (people over 30 relying on parents is almost unheard of.)

[12192008]

"Your father can directly fax his income tax notice of assessment to us if you do not have access to your father's income information (see our fax no. below). This information is required to make a financial aid assessment. You will be deemed to receive a certain amount of financial assistance from your father based on his ability to contribute even if your father does not in fact contribute to your education."

I completely understand why they do this, it's just too bad they don't understand that some fathers have no desire to help their children (i.e. no way I could ever convince him to help me out by faxing his income tax notice of assessment to anyone). Guess I'm not getting any financial aid if I pick UofT (unless I steal his mail every day until he gets his notice of assessment!)

Does anyone know if Osgoode is different?

Edited by 12192008, 17 January 2012 - 08:59 AM.

[davedavedave]

1) Tell them your father died right before you were born. Hopefully they won't require a notarial copy of his certificate of death.
2) Tell them neither you nor your mother have no idea who your father is (is calling your mother promiscuous worth the money?).

I'm just joking around, but seriously, explain the situation. Tell them there is no way of getting in touch with your father, he refuses to maintain any sort of contact with you. If you're already in at U of T, bitch and keep asking to talk to someone higher up. This seems like a just cause that's worth a fight. Best of luck.

[tng11]

I would find it very disconcerting if the OP was denied financial aid on the basis of not being able to get the father's tax returns. If the father has severed ties with his children, doesn't that intuitively mean that he isn't financially assisting the children anyways? Thus, he shouldn't be part of the financial aid calculation. The school may believe that every applicant could claim this situation as it's tough to prove, but I would hope that they have some kind of exceptions allowed for compassionate circumstances.

I remember when filling out the Osgoode financial aid form that I didn't even have to fill out the income of my parents. Most likely they will need our parents income if we decide to matriculate, but Osgoode at the very least isn't as strict when considering if you're independent, while the UofT seems to operate on a strict age basis.

[davedavedave]

I guess the argument could be that no one is owed financial assistance from a private institution, and thus if U of T prefers to weed out those who take advantage of the system with irrational rules then that's simply too bad for those who are actually in need and don't get it. As our universities are somewhat public institutions I'm not sure if this argument actually stands (i.e. if part of the condition of the money they receive from public funds is to provide assistance to those in need).

Financial aid is far from a perfect system and a lot of these issues need attention. I know people who should definitely not have received OSAP yet have, and people who definitely should've that haven't.

[12192008]

The problem is that even if we can prove we are not receiving any financial aid whatsoever from our parents, UofT's financial aid booklet says the purpose is not to identify students who are receiving aid from their parents but to identify students who come from a disadvantaged background.

This make sense to a certain degree - although my parents aren't helping me out now, I was able to save the money I made when I worked in high school compared other students coming from a disadvantaged background who may not have been able to do so. It is also reasonable to assume that, even if two students are financially independent from their parents, the parents of the one coming from a more advantaged family will, on average, be more likely to help their children out financially if they get in a difficult situation (except in my case ).

Another issue they don't consider is that of parents being self-employed. They ask for only last year's tax return, which can be in the negative amount for a self-employed person who usually makes millions in most years or can be in the millions for someone who may have made nothing in many years. In other words, one year's tax returns really doesn't indicate whether a student comes from a disadvantaged background.

tng11, on 17 January 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

I would find it very disconcerting if the OP was denied financial aid on the basis of not being able to get the father's tax returns. If the father has severed ties with his children, doesn't that intuitively mean that he isn't financially assisting the children anyways? Thus, he shouldn't be part of the financial aid calculation. The school may believe that every applicant could claim this situation as it's tough to prove, but I would hope that they have some kind of exceptions allowed for compassionate circumstances.

Edited by 12192008, 18 January 2012 - 08:27 AM.

[12192008]

It seems several people on here think that age is an appropriate indicator of how much financial assistance one should be deemed to be getting from their parents, however, I would have to disagree. If we were to, let's say, deem everyone over the age of 25 financially independent of their parents and everyone under the age of 25 financially dependent on their parents, what happens to people like me? I'm 20 years old, been living on my own and financially independent from my parents for the past 4 years. It wouldn't seem fair that I don't get financial aid compared to a 26 year old, who may very well be getting aid from their parents!

Honestly, though, I can't criticize any of the schools for the way of determining financial aid as I can't think of a much better solution - no matter how they decide to do it, some people will be able to take advantage of the system and others will be unfairly disadvantaged.

[12192008]

For Osgoode, I've filled out the financial application and it does not require my parents' income unless I say I am dependent on them (which I'm not).
Will they require me to give them my parental income once I start school in September (if I choose them) or will I be able to avoid this whole issue by going to Osgoode?

[whereverjustice]

12192008, on 18 January 2012 - 09:47 AM, said:

For Osgoode, I've filled out the financial application and it does not require my parents' income unless I say I am dependent on them (which I'm not).
Will they require me to give them my parental income once I start school in September (if I choose them) or will I be able to avoid this whole issue by going to Osgoode?

Unless they've changed things this year, they'll ask what your parental/spousal contribution is (if any), but won't ask for actual income data for your parents.

[12192008]

That's a relief!

This might force me to choose Osgoode over UofT, which is disappointing since UofT is my dream school...

whereverjustice, on 18 January 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

Unless they've changed things this year, they'll ask what your parental/spousal contribution is (if any), but won't ask for actual income data for your parents.

[JessieL]

Not what I want to hear either

[whereverjustice]

12192008, on 18 January 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

This might force me to choose Osgoode over UofT

You'd better investigate this thoroughly before making a big decision like that. I'd advise you speak with Penny Spence, Director of Financial Services at Osgoode to confirm your understanding of Osgoode's bursary program. Her number is 416-650-8132. The good news is that she's very friendly and likes to hear from incoming students.

[This_is_Sparta]

whereverjustice, on 18 January 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

You'd better investigate this thoroughly before making a big decision like that. I'd advise you speak with Penny Spence, Director of Financial Services at Osgoode to confirm your understanding of Osgoode's bursary program. Her number is 416-650-8132. The good news is that she's very friendly and likes to hear from incoming students.

+1 she's very helpful and nice.

[12192008]

For those of you that are interested, we found out at Welcome Day today that they are (very carefully) accommodating in this regard.
You must submit a letter with your application explaining why you have not attached one of your parents' notices of assessment. I would suggest being very careful with this (i.e. don't try to get free bursary money by lying and saying you don't speak to your parents) as they said they do send the information off to the admissions committee who will then investigate it and give you a response.
After talking to them today, I don't think you'll have any problem if you're in a situation close to mine. Just give them a call or send them an email. I was amazed by how welcoming and helpful the entire faculty was.

Edited by 12192008, 17 February 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[JessieL]

12192008, on 17 February 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

I was amazed by how welcoming and helpful the entire faculty was.

Me too!

[This_is_Sparta]

Can't believed I missed it. Can you two please elaborate on what was discussed during Welcome Day?

[JessieL]

This_is_Sparta, on 20 February 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

Can't believed I missed it. Can you two please elaborate on what was discussed during Welcome Day?

Done here: http://lawstudents.c...35-welcome-day/