16 replies to this topic

[Woo Harris]

I'm a little hesitant to post a thread on a comparison that's been done many times. Lest I be accused of not doing my research, I'd like to assure everyone I've used the search function on this forum thoroughly and it has been quite informative, but I'd appreciate fresh opinions.

The main issue is picking between Queen's and Western, with a few points to consider:

- I'm from Windsor, finishing my undergrad there, and would like to work in Southwestern Ontario eventually.

- The branch of Law I am most interested at this very early point is Criminal. I am told Queen's is definitely the place to go for this, for the numerous clinical opportunities. That came up repeatedly in archived threads, as well the fact that Western no longer has its criminal law concentration. Unless I am missing something from the course selections (linked below), Western still seems to cover criminal law fairly well. Is that negated by them not having a good enough criminal law faculty?

http://law.queensu.c.../upperYear.html

http://www.law.uwo.c...ringsChart.html



- While Kingston is not a negative in my mind, London is pretty much an ideal location for me. It allows me to experience a new city, I can justify not living at home while attending school (Which I would do if I chose Windsor, a whole other debate), while at the same time living in the region I'd like to practice in.

Is the decision basically Criminal = Queen's? It is certainly my main area of interest but could very well change, so I am nervous making such a decision on what may be a passing or uninformed preference for Criminal law. I don't see myself as the big law gunner that Western seems to attract and I wonder how much that could affect my experience there.

I feel this is getting long-winded so I'll just conclude by asking: does anyone has some insight or advice to offer?

Any help is appreciated of course!

[tng11]

Disclosure: I'm a fellow 0L.

From what I've read on here so far, it seems that Western is a very corporate focused school, to the extent that it invests a lot in strengthening its specialization in Corporate at the cost of other specializations. In fact, I've heard that Western has dropped its Criminal specialization. If that's true, then Queen's would be the only one of the two right for you. And even if you do decide to go on another track (who know, you might want Corporate after you finish 1L), Queen's still offers that opportunity.

I'm wondering why aren't you considering Osgoode though? I've heard very good things about its Criminal program, its focus on social justice and the diversity of clinics available.

[whereverjustice]

I'd be curious to see what Western students think of this. (I went to Osgoode an.) Looking at the upper year curriculum, I'd be inclined to think that Western will be fine, with one caveat. You've got Criminal Procedure, Evidence, and a few other criminal law courses there (e.g. sentencing and regulatory offences) - that should be enough to get a decidedly Crimmy transcript. Especially if you can do the for-credit clinical.

I wouldn't read too much into the lack of a distinct criminal specialization program - Osgoode doesn't have one either, and no one gives them flak for it - and if it's in the ideal location for you, that's a big deal! Law school is, after all, three years of your life.

The caveat is clinical programs. I assume that Western's clinic allows any student to join as a caseworker, even if they're not doing it for credit. If not, that would be a concern.

[Lionel.Hutz]

Queen's legal aid is phenomenal. I've been to court like 4 times, had a few resolution meetings, and had a number of client meetings. I haven't done Queen's correctional yet, but representing and personally interacting with convicted murderers and rapists in front of prison tribunals is as real as it gets if you're into criminal. I've heard nothing but good things about the program. It is definitely the best exposure you can get to criminal law in the country as a law student.

[asfxxx]

I think ruling out Western because they don't have a "criminal concentration" is stupid, because Queen's doesn't have a criminal concentration either (nor does any other school in Ontario).

You'll get the same core crim classes and access to a legal aid program at any school you go to more or less. The thing that sets Queen's apart is its clinical correctional program which allows students to participate in inmate appeals & represent prisoners in disciplinary and parole board hearings. If you're seriously interested in criminal law (vs think you think you may be interested in it at this early stage of the game), you'd be crazy to turn it down.

Edited by asfxxx, 10 January 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[asfxxx]

(to burst the bubble presented by the poster above me and to offer a more realistic view of things, many QLA files are incredibly boring and there is a bad thing about the correctional program - you have to sit through an awful 3 hour class every week)

[Woo Harris]

Wow thanks for all the input thus far.

@TNG11: I too have heard great things about Osgoode academically, but to from what I've looked into, it would be about $15,000 more. Probably not much in the grand scheme of things to most, but in addition to paying more its largely a commuter school, I'm not a fan of the neighbourhood, and I think I'm not the right sort of person to appreciate the benefits of being in Toronto as I'm more of a mid-sized city kind of person.

@ Whereeverjustice and Asfxxx Thanks your thoughts, as a 0L I was unsure if I was missing something when looking at the upper year courses as they seemed largely the same. I realize Queen's doesn't have a specific crime concentration either, but its reputation for that practice area partnered with the clinics makes it seem a much more criminal law oriented school, while the impression I gather was criminal law is/was put on the back burner at Western.

@Mr. Hutz and asfxxx, do I recall correctly that the Correctional program is done by lottery or is that only for course credit and you can volunteer otherwise? I'm pretty sure I read this in a thread and can't seem to find it again, but that would be a huge impact on my decision if going to Queen's meant only being entered in the lottery for such a useful program.

For me right now, it appears to be a decision between location and specialization. I have to say that my gut is leaning towards Western, but my brain says Queen's best suits my professional interests.

[asfxxx]

it's done by "lottery", but it's not like your name gets picked out of a hat. there's an application process that is (as per my understanding which could be wrong) necessitated by practical considerations - X # of students need to have access to a car to get to some of the prisons the clinic services, and people who have a history of working as a corrections officer (or whatever) I believe are disqualified because it would (theoretically) preclude them from developing a relationship of trust with the inmates req'd in any solicitor-client relationship.

i don't know anyone who really wanted to do it and wasn't able to, much less was denied the opportunity 2 years in a row (though that doesn't mean it's never happened).

I doubt going to school in Kingston will have any real effect on your ability to eventually practice criminal law in Southwestern Ontario. I wouldn't be surprised if a ton of the people working in defence firms/crown offices down there (including those responsible for hiring) are queen's alumni anyway.

if you would rather go to law school in London or Windsor than Kingston, that's a different issue - but if your "location" concern is long term I don't think it should be determinative.

Edited by asfxxx, 11 January 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[schroed]

It's a close call, and to be frank, from what I've been told by upper years, interests often shift throughout school (as you acknolwedge). In my opinion, you should go based on where you will be happiest for the 3 years. If you are able to, visit both schools and towns and get a feel for the community. For example, it would suck to come to Queen's solely for its perceived strength in crim law, only to decide it's not what you want to pursue and therefore end up stuck somewhere you don't actually want to be. On that front, if you do decide to come visit Queen's, I'd be happy to show you around the law building and (what I know) of campus/downtown Kingston.

Edited by schroed, 11 January 2012 - 01:59 PM.

[Maven]

queen's has a strengh in crim and western has a strengh in corporate, if you have a strong interest in either, that should influence your decision to some degree. Even if they both offer similiar courses, those doing the hiring know the traditions of the schools (consider the alumni base, historically if queens has been a strong crim school this will help with networking/hiring). Western cut buck the number of criminal courses it offered and lost a few criminal professors in the recent past to the point where i know a former student said "stay away from here if you are interested in criminal law" (i think that was a post on this forum somewhere but i can't find it). That being said, Queens is working on becoming increasingly corporate focused, so there really isn't that much difference between the two schools. And as was pointed out interests do change in law school a lot, so weigh your perceived interest in an area of the law carefully.

[Woo Harris]

I appreciate all of you taking the time to reply and help me out. As you said Schroed, I really need to set up visits to each school. Western is fairly close so shouldn't be a problem but I really need to get out to Queen's, I think seeing the area for myself would really help me decide. Again, my main hesitation is realizing my preferences may change, otherwise it'd be nearly impossible to say no to Queen's.

[CaptainCrunchMan]

So I am trying to make the Queens vs Western decision now as well. It sounds like Western is better for corporate while Queens is better for crim, but the problem is that I have no idea what area of law I'd want to go into! I do have an interest in health law, which Queens offers more courses in, but it doesn't sound like there is a market for that really. I really like the vibe I get from Western, and I think I'd prefer London over Kingston (although I've never actually been to Kingston), but I'm concerned about the strong corporate focus. What if I discover that I have no interest in corporate law? Will I be stuck and very bored? Another issue is that I can't look for housing until I hear back about my apps for another professional program, which won't be until Mid-May or possibly even the end of the June...will that make it difficult to find somewhere nice to live that's in a convenient area?

[visualpurple]

if you're getting a good vibe from Western, go there. I will say that Kingston is an awesome little town though.

[Ill]

I'm in essentially the same situation as CCM. I also don't know what kind of law I'm going to be pursuing in the end, but I think I'm most interested in any of corporate, criminal, or international. If I was sure that I wanted to do corporate, I would probably head to Western but the problem is I think I'm nearly as likely to go in another direction. A question I did have was if I did choose Queens and decided to pursue corporate law, how strong is their law program in that regard? Would I be at a large disadvantage compared to if I had gone to Western?

Been to both Kingston and London, though not for a few years at either, and being a city person, neither really blew me away at all. Still waiting to hear back from Osgoode and McGill primarily but doubt I'm going to know before April, so I'll have to provisionally accept at either Queens or Western.

[Woo Harris]

I'm visiting Western on Welcome Day, and have to schedule a tour of Queen's on my own time before the deadline. Captain, the Western Law student that I talked to on the phone said she knew many people not interested in corporate law and all of them seem happy with the variety of other interests that can be pursued at Western. I can't really comment on the housing situation. I have made very little progress since I started this thread, though mostly because I feel like I'm splitting hairs by pondering future hypotheticals and over analyzing course lists.

On the surface, Queen's feels like a better fit for me from the admissions package they sent out and from what I hear about the school. Distance from where I want to be is really the only hurdle left for me to get over. I also still need to visit both schools. I think it is going to come down to feel, though it seems odd to make such a decision with my gut and not my head. Wherever I feel most comfortable is where I will attend (pending a long discussion with my SO).

Ill, someone might have advice to the contrary, but my impression now is you'll have your bases covered with either of these schools. Though McGill seems like it would totally rock (Kinda wish I applied there despite rusty French).

[Zarnium]

Ill, on 06 March 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

A question I did have was if I did choose Queens and decided to pursue corporate law, how strong is their law program in that regard? Would I be at a large disadvantage compared to if I had gone to Western?

That's the same question I have. I have to choose between Queen's and Western. I have a stronger interest in corporate law but I got a better vibe from Queen's.

Edited by Zarnium, 12 March 2012 - 10:14 AM.

[wildflower]

Ill, on 06 March 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

I'm in essentially the same situation as CCM. I also don't know what kind of law I'm going to be pursuing in the end, but I think I'm most interested in any of corporate, criminal, or international. If I was sure that I wanted to do corporate, I would probably head to Western but the problem is I think I'm nearly as likely to go in another direction. A question I did have was if I did choose Queens and decided to pursue corporate law, how strong is their law program in that regard? Would I be at a large disadvantage compared to if I had gone to Western?

Been to both Kingston and London, though not for a few years at either, and being a city person, neither really blew me away at all. Still waiting to hear back from Osgoode and McGill primarily but doubt I'm going to know before April, so I'll have to provisionally accept at either Queens or Western.

One thing I love about Queen's is that it is completely normal if you don't have a strong desire to do the corporate route. Queen's is trying to set itself as a 'global law school' which is reflected in its high number of international exchanges as well as its completely unique BISC program in England. Roughly a third of the first year class goes on this 2 month trip in May-June. It is very popular with students and once in a lifetime experience. Not just in terms of a great experience, but also in terms of networking with international lawyers, professors, etc

I am sure that Western students don't feel neglected or left out if they aren't part of the bay st gunners - but my impression is that Queen's doesn't just make an effort to provide "alternate opportunities" to students, they are trying to make those 'alternative opportunities' one of their biggest focuses. Now, of course, most students don't go on to become international human rights lawyers, which would be impossible anyway. It just means that the student body has more of an international interest, at least that's been my experience. That's why I went here.

You will not be at a disadvantage corporate-ly no matter what law school you choose, but distinguishing between Queen's/Western in terms of "corporate advantage" is splitting hairs.

Edited by wildflower, 12 March 2012 - 03:41 PM.