19 replies to this topic

[thornem]

I want to end up in a school that will land me in a 'biglaw' firm. My cGPA is kick-ass, I have yet to nail the LSAT but it is only a matter of time.

Can anyone give me some insight into the academic benefits of studying in Canada vs. the benefits of studying in the USA? Can anyone comment on the difference between a first-tier and a second-tier law school in the USA?

[davedavedave]

If you want to practice in Canada, go to law school in Canada. If you want to practice in the United States, especially biglaw, don't bother with anything other than first-tier.

[thornem]

Why do you say that? I have been reading quite a bit online, and it seems like coming out as a gunner in the top 10% of your graduating class in a second-tier law school could land you in 'biglaw'.

[KER_2012]

In my opinion, you should go to law school in the country you want to practice law in. It's illogical to do it any other way.

Aside from the basic logic of studying and making connections in the location you ultimately want to work in, there's also the tuition to consider. US law schools are exorbitantly expensive, I see no reason to add that extra stress to the preexisting stress of going to law school.

I'm sure it's possible to be successful with a law degree from a T2 school, but if I'm paying $40,000+ a year for my education, I would want it to be from a school with a solid reputation.

[theiva4]

if you have a lot of money to waste like 200k since youll be an international student, and you want to be unemployed and drowning in debt go to an American Law school that is not T14. And finishing top 10% in anything is no easy task! Try finishing top 10% on your LSAT and tell me how easy that is to achieve (coming from someone who couldnt do it himself).

[thornem]

KER_2012, always the voice of reason.

[KER_2012]

thornem, on 09 January 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

KER_2012, always the voice of reason.

Thank you for that!

Additionally, there are currently 200 ABA approved law schools in the US and there are 16 English common law schools in Canada. Yes, there are more people in the US, but with that great of a number of schools it's a safe bet that there are "good" schools and "bad" schools. Whereas in Canada I don't we don't have enough schools for there to be a massive difference between our law schools, I would go as far as to say we don't really have and "bad" schools. There is not as great of a difference between the number one and number 16 school in Canada as there in between the number one and the number 200 school in the US.

[tng11]

Where do you want to practice? US or Canada? If it's the latter, forget US schools.

What's your LSAT? Is it 170+? If not, then forget US schools. Only T14s are worth attending, and anything from T6 downwards is still a crapshoot, especially at sticker. The chilling truth is 25-40% of people in these schools end up making Biglaw. Even going to HYSCCN is no guarantee, finishing below median at Columbia/NYU still leaves you in a bad spot. You do not want to touch anything outside of the T14, even with a substantial scholarship. There's too many lawyers in the US, and many of these new graduates are enslaved for life with their loans without any means to pay it back or discharge them.

How long do you want to stay in Biglaw? More than a few years? Again, if yes, then forget US schools. US firms have high leverage and turnover compared to Canadian firms, and seem to be more volatile during economic cycles. Many firms will make 2 or 3 partners out of 80+ associates, and most leave within a few years, going in-house and taking a significant pay cut. Your 160K paycheque in NYC isn't that much better than 100K in Toronto, but you'll be working more hours and have less job security.

Take it from someone who blanketed T14 this cycle, with NYU on the table, and will be attending either UofT/Osgoode/Western/Queen's (if I get in).

[thornem]

Thanks, tng11. Exactly the sort of gritty insight I was looking for...

[artsydork]

Your profile says that your GPA is a 3.7. Not to be a jerk, but that is actually an average GPA for an incoming law student.

Regardless of the Canadian school you go to, you can end up in "Big law". There are large firms in every province, should you want to practice in Canada.

I'm going to disagree with the other comments about T14 schools in the States. Many T2 and T3 schools place exceedingly well on a regional level. I have met many American law students who opted to go for a T2 or 3 with a scholarship, knowing full well that the school they chose places well within the city the school is in. Will someone from Tulane work in NYC? Unlikely. But they have a hell of a chance getting in the New Orleans market.

Essentially, figure out where you want to work, write the LSATs then figure out schools.

[UselessJD]

Anybody considering a US law school needs to read http://insidethelaws...m.blogspot.com/ very attentively. Actually, I consider it to be an excellent read for Canadians as well, with the stipulation, of course, that debt loads here aren't quite as crushing, and our private LOCs are dischargeable in bankruptcy.

[thornem]

artsydork, on 09 January 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

Your profile says that your GPA is a 3.7. Not to be a jerk, but that is actually an average GPA for an incoming law student.

Regardless of the Canadian school you go to, you can end up in "Big law". There are large firms in every province, should you want to practice in Canada.

I'm going to disagree with the other comments about T14 schools in the States. Many T2 and T3 schools place exceedingly well on a regional level. I have met many American law students who opted to go for a T2 or 3 with a scholarship, knowing full well that the school they chose places well within the city the school is in. Will someone from Tulane work in NYC? Unlikely. But they have a hell of a chance getting in the New Orleans market.

Essentially, figure out where you want to work, write the LSATs then figure out schools.

With the UNB calculations, for example, it will be about a 4.1. I don't know how other schools work, but I thought it might boost a bit. Thanks for the advice.

[BrianGriffintheDog]

Second tier = shit school. First tier = ranges from decent to very prestigious/almost-guaranteed-big-law schools.

If you really want big law, aim for schools that are in the top end of the top14 law schools--i.e Yale, Harvard, Standford, Columbia, NYU etc.

Now, your cgpa will be meaningless if you don't have a LSAT score that is 170+. The US law schools tend to heavily place their emphasis on LSAT scores in contrast to Canadian law schools.

[Bike Tester]

thornem, on 09 January 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

Why do you say that? I have been reading quite a bit online, and it seems like coming out as a gunner in the top 10% of your graduating class in a second-tier law school could land you in 'biglaw'.

Not sure if that's true, but even if it is, I'd still go to U of T before considering anything in the U.S. short of HYSCCN. U.S. biglaw is achievable for the top 10% (possibly more) of U of T students anyway, plus you have near guaranteed Canadian biglaw to fall back on if you don't make it. Plus you are gonna be paying half the tuition, even as compared to a TT.

[staffer]

In defense of second tier schools, there are plenty of them that have good regional reputations. Example: O'Connor/Arizona State is a great school if you want to practice in Phoenix. University of Denver has a wonderful reputation in Colorado. Students who attend schools like these don't face serious difficulty obtaining employment in their home markets, though they'd probably have a tough time getting into a big NY or DC firm.

The point that's made on LS.ca over and over again is that there's simply no reason to pay 3x the tuition and go through the pain in the ass of NCA to attend a school that's not going to be seen as any better than staying in Canada.

[staffer]

Don't get me wrong though, there are some absolutely atrocious US schools with ZERO admissions standards, and that are happy to grant a law degree to anyone willing to fork over $100k. Florida A&M for example, has an average entrance LSAT of 148!

[buns]

Only goto the US for a T14. Only take HYS over U of T, and U of T vs. CCN is a closer call but I'd personally take U of T. (it all depends on where you want to work!)

Those of you defending TT and TTT schools need to head over to lawschooltransparency.com and check out some of these schools you're citing. For example, U of Denver was mentioned and is conveniently one of the most honest schools in the U.S. so hats off to them: http://www.law.du.ed...ent-statistics?

Only 222 of 347 reporting graduates are working jobs that require Bar admission, other stats of note are 12 people are in solo practice (lol) and 22 are employed by the school itself "short term" convenient at the 9-month mark to pad their lousy stats.

You're telling me this is worth 150-200k for a shot to work in Denver?

I'd follow tng11 and Bike Tester's advice in this thread, they are spot on.

[widget]

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can speak to this, but if you're not a US citizen, would that not cause any problems with job seeking in US biglaw? I mean, all things being equal, if they have to choose between a Canadian at HYS and an American at HYS, it would seem that taking on the Canadian would involve more effort on the firm's part. I know that U of T gets students down in NYC, but I also recall the posts in the foreign schools thread about the UK/Australian work visa difficulties, particularly so in recent years.

If there are such hurdles to working in the US for a Canadian, then studying in the US is an even riskier proposition for you, regardless of school: you'd be at a disadvantage relative to your peers for work in the US (a problem if even the T6 are only placing 1 out of every 2 students in biglaw), and you'd still have to go through the NCA process to work in Canada.

[jin45]

I'd echo what many others in this thread have said. Pick one of the below or go to law school in Canada.


NLJ250 + Clerkships

1. Stanford - 78.1%
2. Harvard - 65.7%
3. Northwestern - 64.0%
4. Virginia - 63.8%
5. Columbia - 62.4%
6. Yale - 62.3%
7. Chicago - 62.1%
8. Michigan - 62.0%
9. Duke - 61.8%
10. Penn - 61.2%
11. Berkeley - 59.0%
12. NYU - 58.1%
13. Vanderbilt - 57.1%

source is tls

Edited by jin45, 24 January 2012 - 08:30 AM.

[buns]

widget, on 24 January 2012 - 05:38 AM, said:

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can speak to this, but if you're not a US citizen, would that not cause any problems with job seeking in US biglaw? I mean, all things being equal, if they have to choose between a Canadian at HYS and an American at HYS, it would seem that taking on the Canadian would involve more effort on the firm's part. I know that U of T gets students down in NYC, but I also recall the posts in the foreign schools thread about the UK/Australian work visa difficulties, particularly so in recent years.

If there are such hurdles to working in the US for a Canadian, then studying in the US is an even riskier proposition for you, regardless of school: you'd be at a disadvantage relative to your peers for work in the US (a problem if even the T6 are only placing 1 out of every 2 students in biglaw), and you'd still have to go through the NCA process to work in Canada.

Lawyers are a profession covered under NAFTA so Canadians can very easily obtain TN visas annually to work in the US. So that's why it's easy for Canadians to go do US Biglaw relative to other foreign trained lawyers. You are definitely right though -- all things being equal I think a US firm is going to give the job to the American HYS student rather than the Canadian HYS student, and so on and so forth.