60 replies to this topic

[jsteele]

Been on cloud 9 lately as I've heard from my top choices, however, I'm kinda stuck between Osgoode and UBC. I've been stressing so much lately as UBC wants an answer by Jan 6th and I'm very much on the fence at this point. I'm from Ontario, and would like to practice in Toronto afterwards. I'm still waiting on Queen's.

Any thoughts or advice? It would be much appreciated.

[Mal]

Go to Osgoode /endthread. Seriously, this is not a difficult choice two equal schools one in the market you want the other thousands of miles away.

[whereverjustice]

This is a no-brainer. One law school has a huge, gorgeous, brand-new building by Diamond & Schmitt. It cost tens of millions of dollars and has an impressive multi-storey atrium/lobby in the middle. The other one - oh.

[Bike Tester]

Being astoundingly cheap I feel compelled to point out that Osgoode tuition is nearly double that of UBC. That being said, if you are OK with paying more, Osgoode is probably better for the Toronto market.

[jsteele]

I appreciate the candid thoughts ya'll. This is a really tough decision for me, but I have a bit more time to think.

[Another Hutz]

Relevant considerations:

• Where you want to work, and how open you are to other places
  
• How much you can afford, how much (extra) debt you are taking on (including living expenses), how that will restrict your post-grad options

Think about the second one too, not only the first.

Edited by Another Hutz, 14 December 2011 - 05:47 PM.

[dlb]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but go to school where you want to practice. UBC is a great school, but Osgoode is fantastic. And considering that you want to practice in Toronto, it'd make sense to go to a Toronto school.

Either way, they're both solid schools, but as Mal so eloquently stated, "go to Osgoode /endthread".

[dlb]

I just wanted to add to this that if you decide to go to UBC, you'll be able to secure work in Toronto, it'll just take slightly more effort than were you to attend Osgoode. Just go wherever you'll be happiest, that's what matters.

[MachiavellianPencil]

I'm debating between these two schools myself. I'm from the Greater Toronto Area, and all my family and friends live here. I made a small pro/con chart to guide my decision; feel free to contribute/modify it as you wish.

UBC
Pro:

• Nationally respected school
  
• Tuition is only $11,000
  
• Would make for a great life experience
  
• Vancouver is an amazing city
  
• Massive course selection

Con:

• Cost of living is slightly more expensive than that of Toronto
  
• Distance from friends, family, girlfriend
  
• Distance from the legal market I eventually want to practice in
  
• Loss of connections made during law school

Osgoode
Pro:

• Nationally respected law school
  
• Close to the legal market I want to practice in
  
• Keep connections that I'll make in law school
  
• Close to friends, family, girlfriend
  
• Semestered courses
  
• Great course selection

Con:

• Tuition is $20,000
  
• School is located in North York (one of the ugliest parts of Toronto)
  
• Reputation for being a commuter school/lack of community

[Rashabon]

If those are your real pro/con charts I don't see how you can conclude anything other than Osgoode.

[Radfahrer]

MachiavellianPencil, on 27 February 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

I'm debating between these two schools myself. I'm from the Greater Toronto Area, and all my family and friends live here. I made a small pro/con chart to guide my decision; feel free to contribute/modify it as you wish.

[...]

If you want to work in Toronto, then Osgoode without a question. Yes, you can get Toronto OCIs from UBC, but the reality is that Toronto firms hire few, or no UBC students at all. Don't forget it isn't just getting the interview, being close and the ability to make connections are important. Heck, even UWO would probably be better for your goals, even though it's not as close to Toronto as Osgoode is, it still does very well in Toronto.

As for the community aspect, I've heard both are commuter schools. People at Osgoode doesn't socialize on campus anyways.

[Red]

Radfahrer, on 27 February 2012 - 07:08 PM, said:

If you want to work in Toronto, then Osgoode without a question. Yes, you can get Toronto OCIs from UBC, but the reality is that Toronto firms hire few, or no UBC students at all. Don't forget it isn't just getting the interview, being close and the ability to make connections are important. Heck, even UWO would probably be better for your goals, even though it's not as close to Toronto as Osgoode is, it still does very well in Toronto.

As for the community aspect, I've heard both are commuter schools. People at Osgoode doesn't socialize on campus anyways.

Not many UBC students apply to Toronto firms. That's based on self-selection. Most people here love Vancouver and want to stay in Vancouver. UBC law students are very competitive in the Toronto market and do place well in Toronto. I have yet to see any data that shows Osgoode grads have a better chance of placing in Toronto. In terms of overall placement, UBC does better than Osgoode. I believe UBC's overall placement rate is around 97% percent, whereas Osgoode's is around 94%.

The only real advantage that Osgoode has is that it will provide more opportunities to network in Toronto.

[QuincyWagstaff]

Red, on 27 February 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

Not many UBC students apply to Toronto firms. That's based on self-selection. Most people here love Vancouver and want to stay in Vancouver. UBC law students are very competitive in the Toronto market and do place well in Toronto. I have yet to see any data that shows Osgoode grads have a better chance of placing in Toronto. In terms of overall placement, UBC does better than Osgoode. I believe UBC's overall placement rate is around 97% percent, whereas Osgoode's is around 94%.

The only real advantage that Osgoode has is that it will provide more opportunities to network in Toronto.

Although Red is verging on resident UBC troll, this seems like a valid point. Source for placement stats?

[Red]

Source for UBC's placement rate is: http://www.law.ubc.c...ices/info.html# - Bottom of page (This shows it at between 96-99%)
Source for Osgoode's placement rate: http://www.lsuc.on.c...ltation-report/ - Appendix 6 (15 unplaced students out of 290 = 94.8%)

Based on this data, a more accurate comparison will be: UBC 96-99%. Osgoode 94.8%.

And just to clarify, my point isn't that UBC is better. My point is that many assumptions made by people on this board are likely incorrect. Both schools are nationally respected law schools. Both place very well (as shown by the above numbers). Sure, Osgoode has the advantage of more networking opportunities in Toronto. In just the same way, UBC has the advantage of more networking opportunities in Vancouver. That's the only substantive advantage that either school will offer over the other.

Edited by Red, 27 February 2012 - 09:33 PM.

[QuincyWagstaff]

Red, on 27 February 2012 - 09:26 PM, said:

Source for UBC's placement rate is: http://www.law.ubc.c...ices/info.html# - Bottom of page (This shows it at between 96-99%)
Source for Osgoode's placement rate: http://www.lsuc.on.c...ltation-report/ - Appendix 6 (15 unplaced students out of 290 = 94.8%)

Based on this data, a more accurate comparison will be: UBC 96-99%. Osgoode 94.8%.

And just to clarify, my point isn't that UBC is better. My point is that many assumptions made by people on this board are likely incorrect. Both schools are nationally respected law schools. Both place very well (as shown by the above numbers). Sure, Osgoode has the advantage of more networking opportunities in Toronto. In just the same way, UBC has the advantage of more networking opportunities in Vancouver. That's the only substantive advantage that either school will offer over the other.

Considering the source and numbers involved, there is no significant difference. I consider the tuition a very significant factor, however.

Edited by QuincyWagstaff, 27 February 2012 - 10:09 PM.

[Radfahrer]

Red, on 27 February 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

The only real advantage that Osgoode has is that it will provide more opportunities to network in Toronto.

If the poster is leaning towards Toronto, then this is a reason enough to attend Osgoode. The inverse is true, if he wanted to work in Vancouver, it would be daft not to go to UBC even though Osgoode grads do get jobs in Vancouver. Don't underestimate the importance of networking, the numerous events that firms hold locally, the number of firms that go to OCIs (from what articling students and practicing lawyers have told me) WILL have a tangible impact on your job prospects. The students who go to the Ontario schools would already have a leg up on you in this regard, and why handicap yourself when you had the choice. Not to say that it can't be overcome, as he also could demonstrate strong Toronto ties by virtue of having family or doing undergrad in Toronto (just look at how many Dalhousie students there are on Bay St!)

I faced this same dilemma back in January. I concluded that Toronto is the market I want to practice in, so I didn't deposit at UBC. I'll admit that the location and low tuition were extremely tempting, but for what I want to do, it was a worthy tradeoff.

[WanderingJD]

Just FYI, not only is Vancouver more expensive than Toronto, but UBC is in the most expensive part of Vancouver. Expect to pay 30-50% more for a similar quality of life in Vancouver. UBC is probably still cheaper overall than Osgoode, but not by much.

[QuincyWagstaff]

WanderingJD, on 04 March 2012 - 02:19 AM, said:

Just FYI, not only is Vancouver more expensive than Toronto, but UBC is in the most expensive part of Vancouver. Expect to pay 30-50% more for a similar quality of life in Vancouver. UBC is probably still cheaper overall than Osgoode, but not by much.

This is a gross exaggeration.

[Stupor]

QuincyWagstaff, on 04 March 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

This is a gross exaggeration.

I'd be interested to know how you came up with those numbers too.

It costs much more to buy a house in Vancouver than in Toronto, but the rent in the two cities aren't that far apart. I don't have the money to buy (not that I would even if I could, given Vancouver's RE bubble, but that's another topic), so the biggest living expense - housing - I will have is therefore about the same in both cities. I don't plan on getting a car either. Will groceries and other miscellaneous expenses make up the 30-50% difference?

Edited by Stupor, 04 March 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[mrstitch]

I've lived in both Vancouver and Toronto and I do not find groceries/miscellaneous any more expensive in Vancouver than in (downtown) Toronto. I also find the winters better in Vancouver than Toronto--it actually has not been raining too much. Found it much much colder in Toronto.

[tortsforthewin]

UBC is on a peninsula overlooking the Pacific Ocean. Osgoode is $7k more and...near Jane & Finch. Toronto OCIs just as heavily at UBC as it does at Osgoode. Don't write off UBC simply on the basis of geography.

[QuincyWagstaff]

mrstitch, on 04 March 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

I've lived in both Vancouver and Toronto and I do not find groceries/miscellaneous any more expensive in Vancouver than in (downtown) Toronto. I also find the winters better in Vancouver than Toronto--it actually has not been raining too much. Found it much much colder in Toronto.

Yeah, no shit. I enjoy being able to leave the house without donning a hideous $800 arctic-expedition puffy-coat.

[briviere]

tortsforthewin, on 04 March 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

UBC is on a peninsula overlooking the Pacific Ocean. Osgoode is $7k more and...near Jane & Finch. Toronto OCIs just as heavily at UBC as it does at Osgoode. Don't write off UBC simply on the basis of geography.

So, does this mean that Osgoode doesn't give you any better opportunity to get into Toronto firms that participate in OCIs than UBC?

[WanderingJD]

Stupor, on 04 March 2012 - 11:19 AM, said:

I'd be interested to know how you came up with those numbers too.

It costs much more to buy a house in Vancouver than in Toronto, but the rent in the two cities aren't that far apart. I don't have the money to buy (not that I would even if I could, given Vancouver's RE bubble, but that's another topic), so the biggest living expense - housing - I will have is therefore about the same in both cities. I don't plan on getting a car either. Will groceries and other miscellaneous expenses make up the 30-50% difference?

You can't look at Vancouver rents vs Toronto rents, you need to look at UBC area rents vs Osgoode area rents. The area around UBC is a bit more expensive than DOWNTOWN Toronto (Annex, queen west etc). And public transit to UBC is not as good as public transit in general in Vancouver.

Here's what you're looking at for a 1 br (possibly basement). 15 Minutes from campus (Point Grey,Kits)- $1250/mo, 30 Minutes from Campus (Fairview) $1000/mo, 45 minutes from Campus (marpole, south main) $900/month. You can do better than this, but it requires some luck and searching.

If you live in Point Grey or Fairview, you will be paying pretty much Whole Foods prices for food. Further east, you find cheap grocery stores.

Anyway, I just want to make people realize what they're getting into. Living in Vancouver did a number on my finances, and was much more expensive than I had expected. And I was moving from downtown Toronto. There simply isn't anything cheap in that city, at least not near campus.

[Stupor]

WanderingJD, on 04 March 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

You can't look at Vancouver rents vs Toronto rents, you need to look at UBC area rents vs Osgoode area rents. The area around UBC is a bit more expensive than DOWNTOWN Toronto (Annex, queen west etc). And public transit to UBC is not as good as public transit in general in Vancouver.

I was under the impression that most Osgoode student lived downtown (any current students, please feel free to chime to in to support/correct me); it'd be hella depressing to live on the York campus. So UBC area vs Toronto downtown is an apt comparison. As you mentioned, the rent in the two areas aren't that far off.

The off-campus rent for UBC you posted are pretty terrible; I haven't looked beyond on-campus housing, so I'll defer to you on those. But on-campus housing costs actually aren't that bad (by Vancouver/DT Toronto standars). I'm going to live on campus for ~$1000/month (1-bedroom apartment). It's a bit more than what I would pay for in Toronto, but not by much.

Edited by Stupor, 04 March 2012 - 05:40 PM.

[WanderingJD]

I saw the link you gave me in your PM. You realize you don't even get your own kitchen for $1k/month? And that utilities are not included?

You can get shared accommodation like that in downtown Toronto for $700/month, and I bet you can get it for $500 a month if you're willing to live near Osgoode. And really, if you take away the pretty views, Osgoode Campus is probably comparable to UBC campus (isolated, 45 minutes from downtown, ghost town at night, etc).

Of course, we are comparing apples to oranges here, there are a lot of differences between Osgoode and UBC, but I stick by my statement that an Osgoode Apple costs 30-50% less than a UBC Orange.


(Citation for the Toronto rents http://www.neill-wyc...=100&Itemid=127)

[Stupor]

WanderingJD, on 04 March 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

I saw the link you gave me in your PM. You realize you don't even get your own kitchen for $1k/month? And that utilities are not included?

You can get shared accommodation like that in downtown Toronto for $700/month, and I bet you can get it for $500 a month if you're willing to live near Osgoode. And really, if you take away the pretty views, Osgoode Campus is probably comparable to UBC campus (isolated, 45 minutes from downtown, ghost town at night, etc).

Of course, we are comparing apples to oranges here, there are a lot of differences between Osgoode and UBC, but I stick by my statement that an Osgoode Apple costs 30-50% less than a UBC Orange.

The residence I PMed you does come with a kitchen (stove, fridge, etc). All utilities are included. Pretty typical for on-campus one-bedrooms. You must have read some other description.

You do have a point about how the UBC campus is just a prettier (and safer, probably) version of the York campus. I'll have to see how I like it first year.

[dustyfootphilosopher]

tortsforthewin, on 04 March 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

UBC is on a peninsula overlooking the Pacific Ocean. Osgoode is $7k more and...near Jane & Finch. Toronto OCIs just as heavily at UBC as it does at Osgoode. Don't write off UBC simply on the basis of geography.

briviere, on 04 March 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

So, does this mean that Osgoode doesn't give you any better opportunity to get into Toronto firms that participate in OCIs than UBC?

Like briviere, I'm also curious about this. tortsforthewin, where did you get this information? Are you saying that Toronto firms recruit UBC students just, or almost, as heavily as they do Ontario students?

[Red]

The difference between UBC and York/Osgoode is a lot more than just the pretty scenario.

1. Most UBC law students live in Kitsilano (10-15 min from campus and 10-15 min from downtown). I think the closest place in Toronto that I can compare Kits to is the Annex. You got all the little restaurants and shops there, but what makes it even better is the fact that you got the ocean/beach right there.

2. Have you been to York/Osgoode? It's completely surrounded by an industrial park, nothingness, and low income housing. There is nothing nice about living there, and downtown is friggin far from the campus. York does not have anything like Kits nearby. How can you even begin to compare it to UBC? That being said, the university itself is much better than people give it credit for, and the crime is nowhere near as bad as what the media makes it seem like. There is probably much more crime in and around the downtown U of T campus than at the York campus. The difference is that when crime happens near U of T, it gets associated with downtown, but when crime happens near York, it gets associated with York. The same can be said about Ryerson. Has anyone been to that area just east of the Ryerson campus? Man, that area can be pretty scary at night. I'm willing to bet more crime happens there in single a day than happens at York in a whole month. York also has that good ol' Jane and Finch stigma that the media loves to exaggerate.

3. Rent is definitely more expensive in Vancouver than Toronto, but not by much. The price that you would pay to live in Kitsilano is comparable to what you would pay to live in the Annex, and the lifestyle is just as nice (if not nicer). You get what you pay for.

Take what people on this board say about rent prices with a grain of salt. It's always better to do your own research. It's easy to do on craigslist or padmapper.com.

Edited by Red, 10 April 2012 - 01:00 AM.

[5khh]

Red, on 10 April 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

The difference between UBC and York/Osgoode is a lot more than just the pretty scenario.

1. Most UBC law students live in Kitsilano (10-15 min from campus and 10-15 min from downtown). I think the closest place in Toronto that I can compare Kits to is the Annex. You got all the little restaurants and shops there, but what makes it even better is the fact that you got the ocean/beach right there.

REALLY?