33 replies to this topic

[davedavedave]

DISCLAIMER A: I am not racist and do not intend this thread to be interpreted as such.

DISCLAIMER B: I did a few searches and could not find a similar topic (other than the one on Queen's being disproportionately white.

I was just curious as to people's comments on the ethnic makeup/diversity of the different law schools. Are they all pretty much the same or do they differ? If so, please comment. I'm not interested simply in visible minorities, but also cultural differences between non-visible minorities (e.g. of British descent vs. Slavic descent).

My dad went to Osgoode many years ago and says that it was predominately Jewish although, I'm sure that it has changed since he graduated.

[schroed]

I can't speak to other schools, but I've found Queen's to have a decent spread of ethnic minorities. While the majority of people are caucasian, there are good number of asian, south asian, and middle eastern students here in my 1L class. I would also guess that the larger proprtion of caucasian law students is also somewhat due to the ethnic makeup of those in undergrad who decide to pursue law degrees, though again, I could be wrong as I have not seen what it's like at other schools.

Edited by schroed, 12 December 2011 - 02:25 PM.

[lazio]

From memory, I think U of T was something like 36% visible minority. It's probably lower at other schools.

Oh and if memory serves right, middle easterners and north Africans are classified as "white" or "Caucasian" for reporting purposes.

[pk_00]

lazio, on 12 December 2011 - 02:31 PM, said:

From memory, I think U of T was something like 36% visible minority. It's probably lower at other schools.

Oh and if memory serves right, middle easterners and north Africans are classified as "white" or "Caucasian" for reporting purposes.

In US census' but in Canada they count almost everything as visible minority. Except Aboriginals.

[Tim944]

yeah I find that intersting. like on lsac they have white : European, middle eastern, other white. what would "other" white be lol. maybe from central asian soviet countries?

anyways in Canada west asians (turks, armenians, iranians etc), Arabs, and Latin Americans can be considered visible minority or white. if a person of west asian, arab, or Latin American origin considers themselves White they can tick off Latin American / White , Arab and White, West Asian and White and they will be excluded from the visible minority category.

in the U.S all those groups minus latinos are categorized as White. In the states latino is not considered a race. latino can be White, Black or Aboriginal..

[Geon]

In Canada middle eastern /arab is considered visible minority. In US they are considered in the white category. Strange though, I wonder how those borderline middle eastern people fit in. Like would an Afghan be white or non white in the US census measures. If he is white then why would a pakistani be non white. And if a pakistani is white then why is an indian non white.

From what I recall in the times I went through Osgoode, Osgoode has lots of jews, anglos and africans/carribeans but few east asians.

[whereverjustice]

Geon, on 30 January 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

From what I recall in the times I went through Osgoode, Osgoode has lots of jews, anglos and africans/carribeans but few east asians.

Wait, what? In what context did you "go through" Osgoode? I was sure, based on your posts, that you were a 0L.

[LikeThat12]

Can anyone confirm the breakdown for Western Law?

Edited by LikeThat12, 31 January 2012 - 07:55 AM.

[JudgeDredd]

western/queens are pretty anglo

uoft - jewish/anglo/asian

osgoode - most diverse of the bunch - jewish(a lot), with a fair number of anglo/asian - but also more african and middle east background people than you will find at the other schools i think, more women from under-represented backgrounds as well.

[Tim944]

Geon, on 30 January 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

In Canada middle eastern /arab is considered visible minority. In US they are considered in the white category. Strange though, I wonder how those borderline middle eastern people fit in. Like would an Afghan be white or non white in the US census measures. If he is white then why would a pakistani be non white. And if a pakistani is white then why is an indian non white.

From what I recall in the times I went through Osgoode, Osgoode has lots of jews, anglos and africans/carribeans but few east asians.

It is a bit confusing in Canada. West asian (middle east), arab, and latin can be considered visible minority or White. depends if the person puts down arab (white) or west asian (armenian/white, persian/white, turk/white) or latino (german, spanish etc), then they will be considered not visible minority. it's because people from these regions can be white (caucasian / white in color or non white).

i'm of west asian origin an on the census I put down my ethnicity and white because i'm caucasian in race and white in colour. when people see me I just look 'white' to them so i've always identified as white but non-european which is confusing to some people.

as for afghans I know canada includes them as "west asian" but they are not included in the middle east and they are actually central asian. Pakistan is definately not the middle east it is south asia and in the U.S and Canada people from south asian countries are just considered Asian which is also confusing because in the U.S census, people from japan and pakistan are both considered Asian in race.

[This_is_Sparta]

This is interesting, but I believe the term "West Asian", or "Western Asian", is synonymous with Middle Eastern.

Critics have argued that the notion of a "Middle East" is inherently problematic, because it describes a region's geographical location in relation to Western Europe, as opposed to its proximity to Asia. Thus, the UN, and other international organizations, now use the term "Western Asia" in order to eschew such Eurocentrism.

[Tim944]

well "middle east" is technically not even a region like Asia, it includes north Africa. Middle east is more of a cultural location. for example egypt is usually called the middle east and it is not in Asia but North Africa. Algeria, libya, morroco area also all middle eastern countries in Africa. In the U.S someone from egypt would be categorized as White, in Canada Arab (or white if they indicate white), and in the U.S i've heard people from North Africa putting down "African-American" on the census etc, even though most of them are not black.

so west asian isn't really the same as middle east. the definition of what countries are included in the middle east vary so much and keep on changing as it is more of a political / cultural/ religious area than geographical. west asian is also debatable. countries like turkey, armenia, azerbaijan, border europe or have a small area in the defined area of europe.

[whereverjustice]

Osgoode has been conducting surveys each year of its first year class to help guide admissions policy. The response rate was usually low, but in 2011 they made it mandatory if you wanted to get your grades back for an assignment - so the response rate was 100%.

The survey includes ethnicity data. Here's a look at the 2011 results:

• Arab, 0.7%
  
• Black, 4.8%
  
• Chinese, 9%
  
• Filipino, 0.7%
  
• Inuit 0
  
• Japanese 1%
  
• Korean 1.7%
  
• Latin American 1.4%
  
• Metis 1%
  
• North American Indian 0.3%
  
• South Asian (East Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan) 6.6%
  
• Southeast Asian (Cambodian, Indonesian, Laotian, Vietnamese) 3.1%
  
• West Asian (Afghan, Iranian) 0.3%
  
• White 61.4%
  
• Decline to answer 7.9%

Other interesting bits:

• 83.4% of students identified as single (other options were married, other, and declined to respond)
  
• For sexual orientation, 84% identified as heterosexual. 9% chose not to respond.
  
• 6.9% of respondents reported having sole or shared support of a child.
  
• 47.9% of respondents identified as male, 51% female.
  
• 96.2% of students were Canadian citizens, but only 76.6% were born in Canada.
  
• 22.4% of respondents said that their parents spoke a language other than English or French while they (the students) were in secondary school.
  
• 73.8% of respondents grew up in an urban region, with 22.1% from a rural region.
  
• 8.3% identified as having some kind of impairment, handicap, or disability.
  
• The plurality religion is Christian, at 34.8% of respondents. Next is 'no religion' at 29.7%. Jewish respondents were 12.8%, though this is down from 18.6% under the old admissions policy. Meanwhile Muslim enrolment is up from 1.8% under the old policy to 4.5% in 2011.
  
• Despite the stereotype of law school being dominated by people with lawyer parents, 59.6% percent of students report that their father had a BA or less education, and 64.4% said so for their mothers. Only 6.6% of students' fathers and 2.7% of mothers had an LLB or LLM as their highest level of education.
  
• In 2011, 141 offers were made to students (other than 'merit' or stat-based offers) on the basis of career/life achievements. But only 35 of those offers were to students 30 years of age or older (!)

[jmcazabon]

Any can speak to UO at all?

[Denning Jr]

UBC is a wasp nest. It's not all white, but considerably more white than the general population. Though my comparator is the general UBC/Vancouver population, which is quite diverse. So grain of salt and all that...

[davedavedave]

Tim944, on 12 February 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

latino (german, spanish etc), then they will be considered not visible minority.

Germans are not latino lol.

[theiva4]

davedavedave, on 12 February 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Germans are not latino lol.

you learn something new everyday.

[Tim944]

actually latinos can be ethnically german, as funny as that sounds. I know a peruvian guy that is "latino" but he is spanish, italian, and german mix. most latinos however are a mix of european and aboriginal but you can have white, black, and even asian latinos. it's because "latino" is like "middle east" it's a cultural/ linguistic area not a race. in the states they categorize latinos as white, black or mixed race depending on how they person responds. most people don't know this.

from Wikipedia: (visible minority, Canada).

"In this context, the use of the term non-white does open the door to ambiguity. For example, people who are Arabs or Latin Americans may consider themselves to be white, yet the federal government treats Arabs and Latin Americans as members of the visible minority category."

"In contrast, in accordance with employment equity definitions, persons who reported 'Latin American' and 'White,' 'Arab' and 'White,' or 'West Asian' and 'White' have been excluded from the visible minority population. "

Edited by Tim944, 12 February 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[muffins]

davedavedave, on 12 February 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

Germans are not latino lol.

Many Argentenians are German, spanish, Austrian or Italian or some mix there of. Same goes in Brazil.

In Mexico there are many Japanese, Chinese, Italians and Germans. The Germans are mostly menonites, speaking low-German.

The term "latino" is a racist construction of US culture. Quite similar to how they view the rest of the world. For example, "America" is not a country, it is a continent.

Edited by muffins, 13 February 2012 - 05:31 AM.

[secondchance]

The term "latino" is not a racist "construction" of US culture. It's not a racist construct either. It's a cultural term and not a racial one.

Among Latinos, it's just an abbreviation for 'latinoamericano' which is someone from Latin America. The term "Hispanic" isn't racist either. It's used all the time among Spanish speaking people ( "hispano" in Spanish) to refer to people that speak Spanish. Even though it was originally a term for all people from the Iberian Peninsula ("Hispania" to the Romans), most Spanish speakers wouldn't refer to a Lusophone as Hispanic. "Latino" is more inclusive and would apply to Portuguese and Brazilian people too. In Latin American countries with a large indigenous population and distinct indigenous culture (like Guatemala), you will also hear "ladino" used to describe either people that are of European descent or mestizos who live a Western or hispanicized lifestyle. But, once again, this is cultural and not racial.

[muffins]

secondchance, on 13 February 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

The term "latino" is not a racist "construction" of US culture. It's not a racist construct either. It's a cultural term and not a racial one.

Among Latinos, it's just an abbreviation for 'latinoamericano' which is someone from Latin America. The term "Hispanic" isn't racist either. It's used all the time among Spanish speaking people ( "hispano" in Spanish) to refer to people that speak Spanish. Even though it was originally a term for all people from the Iberian Peninsula ("Hispania" to the Romans), most Spanish speakers wouldn't refer to a Lusophone as Hispanic. "Latino" is more inclusive and would apply to Portuguese and Brazilian people too. In Latin American countries with a large indigenous population and distinct indigenous culture (like Guatemala), you will also hear "ladino" used to describe either people that are of European descent or mestizos who live a Western or hispanicized lifestyle. But, once again, this is cultural and not racial.

depende con quien le pregunta

[secondchance]

No es un termino despectivo y el hecho que se usa también entre "latinos"me parece una prueba contundente.

[staffer]

secondchance, on 13 February 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

The term "latino" is not a racist "construction" of US culture. It's not a racist construct either. It's a cultural term and not a racial one.

Among Latinos, it's just an abbreviation for 'latinoamericano' which is someone from Latin America. The term "Hispanic" isn't racist either. It's used all the time among Spanish speaking people ( "hispano" in Spanish) to refer to people that speak Spanish. Even though it was originally a term for all people from the Iberian Peninsula ("Hispania" to the Romans), most Spanish speakers wouldn't refer to a Lusophone as Hispanic. "Latino" is more inclusive and would apply to Portuguese and Brazilian people too. In Latin American countries with a large indigenous population and distinct indigenous culture (like Guatemala), you will also hear "ladino" used to describe either people that are of European descent or mestizos who live a Western or hispanicized lifestyle. But, once again, this is cultural and not racial.

My understanding of "ladino" is that the term refers to cyrpto-Jews who assumed Catholic identities during the inquisition, many of whom fled to South America. In Hebrew we say "Ladino" to refer to the Jewish/Spanish language spoken by Spanish and Portuguse Jews (basically the Sephardic equivalent of Yiddish that has Spanish and Portuguese vocabulary but uses Hebrew grammar and spelling)

[staffer]

Oh, wikipedia has answered my question for me:

Quote

http://en.wikipedia....i/Ladino_people
Ladino people

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Ladino (disambiguation).
Ladino is a Spanish term used to describe various socio-ethnic categories in Latin America, principally in Central America.
The term Ladino is derived from "latino" and usually refers to the mestizo or hispanicized population.^[1] The demonym Ladino came into use during the colonial era and referred to the Spanish speaking population that didn't belong to the colonial elite of Peninsulares or Criollos, nor to the indigenous peoples.^[2]
This term should not be confused with the Sephardi Jews whose traditional language is known as Ladino.

[LikeThat12]

Can anyone (transfer student or frequent visitor) comment on which of Queens or Western possesses a more multi-cultural student body? Beyond ethnicity, is there a difference in student culture?

[drakeavril]

Denning Jr, on 12 February 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

UBC is a wasp nest. It's not all white, but considerably more white than the general population. Though my comparator is the general UBC/Vancouver population, which is quite diverse. So grain of salt and all that...

Can someone else confirm that? I was under the impression that UBC was like 50% asians...

[West Coast Express]

drakeavril, on 25 March 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

Can someone else confirm that? I was under the impression that UBC was like 50% asians...

UBC as an overall educational institution has a large number of Asians, particularly at the undergraduate level (or so it seems to me). As for UBC Law, it is predominantly white. I'm a 3L at UBC right now and I would suspect the breakdown is something like: 60% white, 20% Asian, 10% aboriginal, 10% other.

[almostnot]

muffins, on 13 February 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

Quite similar to how they view the rest of the world. For example, "America" is not a country, it is a continent.

I believe it may be worse than that. I think "America" actually refers to both South and North America, thus TWO continents.

[almostnot]

West Coast Express, on 25 March 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

UBC as an overall educational institution has a large number of Asians, particularly at the undergraduate level (or so it seems to me). As for UBC Law, it is predominantly white. I'm a 3L at UBC right now and I would suspect the breakdown is something like: 60% white, 20% Asian, 10% aboriginal, 10% other.

In my UBC Law class I'd guess there were probably about 20 asians or 10% of the class. It was super duper white. I'd love to see actual numbers though.

[West Coast Express]

almostnot, on 25 March 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

In my UBC Law class I'd guess there were probably about 20 asians or 10% of the class. It was super duper white. I'd love to see actual numbers though.

I could have very easily estimated a bit high - I think my small group had about 4-5 in 1L (not sure if the other groups had similar proportions), and then a few transfer students on top of that? It would bet no more than 20% though, overall.