25 replies to this topic

[tng11]

I haven't seen one of these threads so far, so I'll kick it off.

To give you the TL;DR version, I'm interested in Toronto/Vancouver corporate law. I've spent quite a few years in Toronto, and want to get a fresh perspective from living in a new place. I'm also concerned about the high tuition at UofT and the upcoming construction at the Law faculty.

Would it be crazy for me to pick UBC if I have some desire to work on Bay St.? I've heard that the Vancouver legal market is dismal at best, but I would most definitely enjoy the quality of life in Vancouver/UBC more, simply because it will be fresh to me, but I was wondering what kind of sacrifice I will be making in terms of job prospects and connections by heading out west.

[buck]

I can't speak for UBC Law but I was a UBC undergrad and had generally an abysmal experience in terms of how the university treated its students. Beautiful campus, great student body, amazing city but I felt throughout my time there that students weren't even a top 5 priority for the administration.

[muffins]

That's how undergrads are treated at most schools in Canada! Undergrads are there for professors and grad students to step on (ie. take your tuition money to finance their research and the administrators obscene salaries).

I think LS is different.

[Line101]

No significant sacrifice, really, particularly in light of the fact that you can go through the National Centre for Business Law program which looks good on a CV. There are some very good profs and practitioners who teach business-oriented classes. Bay firms do hire out of OCI's. I wouldn't worry about it. Go spend 3 years of your life where you want to spend it.

[Mal]

Toronto has a much better faculty and some better clinics, that is what you are getting for the extra $15,000/yr. But UBC is a great school, and it won't significantly disadvantage you in Toronto.

[Bike Tester]

 muffins, on 12 December 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

That's how undergrads are treated at most schools in Canada! Undergrads are there for professors and grad students to step on (ie. take your tuition money to finance their research and the administrators obscene salaries).

I think LS is different.

I think it depends on the school and program. That certainly wasn't my experience as an undergrad. Almost all of my professors were awesome, and truly cared about their students.

[Rashabon]

Bay Street firms hire from UBC, just not anywhere near the proportion they hire from U of T. On the other hand, going to U of T with no connection to Vancouver would make it tougher, though not impossible, to get a job in Vancouver coming out of school.

Ultimately if you're deciding between UBC and U of T, your best bet is to go where you want to practice the most, as it will significantly increase your chances of getting a job there.

[West Coast Express]

One thing to note: while it is true that you should probably go to school where you want to practice, you might actually have an easier time getting Toronto OCIs at UBC than at U of T. At UBC, there just isn't the same demand to go to Bay Street (most students stay in BC), so the dozen or so firms that come out for OCIs try to make it worth their while and grant interviews to candidates who they might not have interviewed had they been at U of T.

In my year, the CSO sent out an email saying that less than 15 students out of the class of 180 applied for Toronto OCIs. Those are pretty good odds for you to get at least a few interviews even if you are a borderline candidate.

[jin45]

In another thread I think you said you turned down a 90k scholarship at UVA. Unless staying in Canada played a major role in that decision, it seems like you're pretty debt-averse (like me). I'd say UBC.

Edit: 0L, so grain of salt. (I hate writing these disclaimers, but sometimes I think they're necessary)

Edited by jin45, 12 December 2011 - 12:49 PM.

[mike4]

 Line101, on 12 December 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

No significant sacrifice, really, particularly in light of the fact that you can go through the National Centre for Business Law program which looks good on a CV. There are some very good profs and practitioners who teach business-oriented classes. Bay firms do hire out of OCI's. I wouldn't worry about it. Go spend 3 years of your life where you want to spend it.

There's a huge advantage to going to school where you want to practice. Keep that in mind.

[Pyke]

 mike4, on 12 December 2011 - 09:10 PM, said:

There's a huge advantage to going to school where you want to practice. Keep that in mind.

Agree - networks matter. It's not just the institutions or locations, it's who do you want your peer group to be for the rest of your life.

UBC is a fantastic school, but in my view, for your goals, U of T is better.

[Benjamic]

Don't know what kind of financial situation you are in (and I don't really want to debate the finer points of financial aid) but U of T will give you a financial aid assessment sometime in March (if you hand in your information). It's pretty accurate if your situation doesn't change and that may affect what tuition you are looking at (I think they know the high tuition will scare people away and chances are good if you got into U of T you got accepted somewhere else and may decide to go to that somewhere else because of the tuition). This could help with your decision if you also know what financial aid UBC is offering. I guess it also depends when UBC needs to know whether you are accepting their offer.

[QuincyWagstaff]

Toronto. UBC is the only Canadian school I considered attending, but I have very different career goals. If you want Bay St., the choice is clear. The only other option I would consider would be a T-6 or T-14 full ride for NYC big law.

[tng11]

 Benjamic, on 13 December 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

Don't know what kind of financial situation you are in (and I don't really want to debate the finer points of financial aid) but U of T will give you a financial aid assessment sometime in March (if you hand in your information). It's pretty accurate if your situation doesn't change and that may affect what tuition you are looking at (I think they know the high tuition will scare people away and chances are good if you got into U of T you got accepted somewhere else and may decide to go to that somewhere else because of the tuition). This could help with your decision if you also know what financial aid UBC is offering. I guess it also depends when UBC needs to know whether you are accepting their offer.

The predicament I'm in is that my parents have an income which would probably exclude me from any form of financial aid (age factor will not help me).

Is getting an article in Vancouver difficult if one doesn't have any ties to the city, aside from going to school there? My family is in Toronto, I grew up here, went to school here, so I guess if I were to do OCI at UBC, I would be able to demonstrate valid reasons for working in Toronto, while I wouldn't be able to demonstrate any reason why I want to work in Vancouver if I did OCI at UofT. At this point, Bay St. is merely an interest, it isn't what I have my mind set on, and trying to balance that with where I want to live (Toronto vs. Vancouver) is really messing with my mind.

Vancouver's climate just jives a lot better with my outdoor hobbies, while Toronto is very unfriendly towards my activities, and that's pretty much what keeps my sanity and life in balance. The quality of life consideration is something that keeps coming back when thinking about these two schools.

Edited by tng11, 14 December 2011 - 05:53 PM.

[Nyx]

 tng11, on 14 December 2011 - 05:52 PM, said:

The predicament I'm in is that my parents have an income which would probably exclude me from any form of financial aid (age factor will not help me).

Is getting an article in Vancouver difficult if one doesn't have any ties to the city, aside from going to school there? My family is in Toronto, I grew up here, went to school here, so I guess if I were to do OCI at UBC, I would be able to demonstrate valid reasons for working in Toronto, while I wouldn't be able to demonstrate any reason why I want to work in Vancouver if I did OCI at UofT. At this point, Bay St. is merely an interest, it isn't what I have my mind set on, and trying to balance that with where I want to live (Toronto vs. Vancouver) is really messing with my mind.

Vancouver's climate just jives a lot better with my outdoor hobbies, while Toronto is very unfriendly towards my activities, and that's pretty much what keeps my sanity and life in balance. The quality of life consideration is something that keeps coming back when thinking about these two schools.

I don't think it would make much (any?) difference that you're not from Vancouver. If you're doing your law degree in Van I don't see why firms would care much about the ties you had with the city prior to LS, I think about 1/3 of the 1L class is from out of province.

Another thing you might want to consider is that lawyering is more fun (or less un-fun depending on how you look at it) in Vancouver in that it is more laid back, or at least that's what I've heard from those who practice here. Apparently, Toronto and Vancouver have very different legal cultures, but I haven't worked in either city so I wouldn't know. For what it's worth, UBC law has exceeded my expectations in terms of teaching quality, course organization and so on. Also, the new building is really pretty and 1Ls get Mondays off. In the end though, it's probably best to follow everybody's "go to school where you want to work" advice. The hard part might be deciding where you want to work

[Benjamic]

From what I've gathered (being 1L though) while you should go to school where you want to work, it's quite possible to go from U of T to Vancouver, or UBC to Toronto. If you're paying sticker price at both schools (and living on your own, although you say you have family in Toronto, I assume that you won't live with your parents? if you do though, you could save money...) then yeah, you'll have a significantly higher debt going to U of T. I love both Vancouver (grew up there and lived there til 6 years ago) and Toronto (thought I would hate it being a west coaster but its grown on me...) but if outdoorsy stuff is something that is important to you, then Vancouver would be better.

Both great schools (I only know one obviously...) and both great campuses (from personal experience, I've gone to both) in their own way. I kind of like U of T in the middle of downtown while at UBC you could always get to a beach...

[West Coast Express]

 Nyx, on 14 December 2011 - 07:43 PM, said:

I don't think it would make much (any?) difference that you're not from Vancouver. If you're doing your law degree in Van I don't see why firms would care much about the ties you had with the city prior to LS, I think about 1/3 of the 1L class is from out of province.

Another thing you might want to consider is that lawyering is more fun (or less un-fun depending on how you look at it) in Vancouver in that it is more laid back, or at least that's what I've heard from those who practice here. Apparently, Toronto and Vancouver have very different legal cultures, but I haven't worked in either city so I wouldn't know. For what it's worth, UBC law has exceeded my expectations in terms of teaching quality, course organization and so on. Also, the new building is really pretty and 1Ls get Mondays off. In the end though, it's probably best to follow everybody's "go to school where you want to work" advice. The hard part might be deciding where you want to work

This is one of the bigger myths out there. You will probably work just as hard in Vancouver as you would in Toronto. It really depends on the firm, but overall I think the billable hour targets for associates is pretty similar overall.

[Diplock]

 tng11, on 12 December 2011 - 08:49 AM, said:

Would it be crazy for me to pick UBC if I have some desire to work on Bay St.?

Emphasis added. This is the only word I needed to decide the discussion here went off track.

Here's the same answer you need that many students have needed before. No law school is the best choice for all possible options. Unless/until you are able to narrow down your ambitions sufficently that you know what you really want to do, not just want you might want to do, every discussion you have is going to be wishy washy and pointless.

Note, that this doesn't limit your right to change your mind later and do something different. People do that all the time. But if you want to know what's best for your current plans that answer needs to be based around your current plans. Not "I would love to do X but might end up doing Y and don't want to close the door on doing Z."

Unless you buy into the idea there's a best choice for all ambitions, you must realize it's silly to load various ideas all into the same question and ask what you should do. There's no possible answer. And props to the OP for implicitly realizing this. He doesn't know if the added tuition for U of T would be worth it. Well, it depends on what you want to end up doing. So get off the damn fence and answer that question first. Because logic has already supplied you with the realization that no school will be the best choice for every possible end. Now you just have to accept what you already know and plan accordingly.

[tng11]

 Diplock, on 20 December 2011 - 10:24 AM, said:

Emphasis added. This is the only word I needed to decide the discussion here went off track.

Here's the same answer you need that many students have needed before. No law school is the best choice for all possible options. Unless/until you are able to narrow down your ambitions sufficently that you know what you really want to do, not just want you might want to do, every discussion you have is going to be wishy washy and pointless.

Note, that this doesn't limit your right to change your mind later and do something different. People do that all the time. But if you want to know what's best for your current plans that answer needs to be based around your current plans. Not "I would love to do X but might end up doing Y and don't want to close the door on doing Z."

Unless you buy into the idea there's a best choice for all ambitions, you must realize it's silly to load various ideas all into the same question and ask what you should do. There's no possible answer. And props to the OP for implicitly realizing this. He doesn't know if the added tuition for U of T would be worth it. Well, it depends on what you want to end up doing. So get off the damn fence and answer that question first. Because logic has already supplied you with the realization that no school will be the best choice for every possible end. Now you just have to accept what you already know and plan accordingly.

This kind of reply is what makes this forum great. I needed that reality check.

Even though QoL is a significant factor to me, Toronto isn't much worse compared to Vancouver. Maybe I have rose tinted spectacles from spending a few days in Vancouver, maybe if I stayed there for a few years, my view of the city would be different, because as they say, "the grass is always greener on the other side". And the reality is, I am going to law school to start a totally new career track, so career prospects in the field I am the most interested in (Bay St./corporate) should trump QoL. As for solving the predicament I'm in (skepticism about UofT's high tuition), I will also be waiting to see what scholarship offers that other Ontario schools might throw me and weigh those carefully. I do realize that UofT places the highest percentage on Bay St., but placing 50% makes it far from guaranteed, and is definitely a function of the higher quality student body (maybe these same people at other Ontario schools would have gotten a Bay St. gig anyways?).

So at this point, I can say UBC is no longer a top choice. Now I move on to the pressing question of T14 (NYU) vs. UofT. This one's somewhat easier, as I don't think I could justify Columbia/NYU without a scholarship (Salaries are higher, but US economy is shaky at best, US Biglaw has high turnover and high leverage, and NYC is mad expensive).

[West Coast Express]

 tng11, on 20 December 2011 - 06:22 PM, said:

This kind of reply is what makes this forum great. I needed that reality check.

Even though QoL is a significant factor to me, Toronto isn't much worse compared to Vancouver. Maybe I have rose tinted spectacles from spending a few days in Vancouver, maybe if I stayed there for a few years, my view of the city would be different, because as they say, "the grass is always greener on the other side". And the reality is, I am going to law school to start a totally new career track, so career prospects in the field I am the most interested in (Bay St./corporate) should trump QoL. As for solving the predicament I'm in (skepticism about UofT's high tuition), I will also be waiting to see what scholarship offers that other Ontario schools might throw me and weigh those carefully. I do realize that UofT places the highest percentage on Bay St., but placing 50% makes it far from guaranteed, and is definitely a function of the higher quality student body (maybe these same people at other Ontario schools would have gotten a Bay St. gig anyways?).

So at this point, I can say UBC is no longer a top choice. Now I move on to the pressing question of T14 (NYU) vs. UofT. This one's somewhat easier, as I don't think I could justify Columbia/NYU without a scholarship (Salaries are higher, but US economy is shaky at best, US Biglaw has high turnover and high leverage, and NYC is mad expensive).

The second question is a way tougher one: deciding which country you want to practice in. I think you have to decide that before looking at U of T vs. UBC.

And don't sleep on UBC, if you decide to stay in Canada. If you perform well enough in first year, you will certainly have a shot at Bay St/downtown Vancouver from UBC. U of T places better but has a lot of inherent risk with that huge tuition. You were a bit on the fence earlier in the discussion with respect to the tuition, but not everyone gets to Bay, no matter how hard they try. And an extra $30K or so of debt could be extra daunting if you end up working in a smaller firm, in a smaller town, etc.

[tng11]

Depending on what Osgoode offers, it will be either them or UofT. After having discussions with a few friends who go to both schools, their perspective is that it's not the school name that gets you a job per se. Objectively, UofT does place a larger percentage on Bay St., but what's to say that the same students at UofT wouldn't have gotten a job at Osgoode? As one friend at UofT put it, even if you break down the whole hiring process to purely about grades, top 1/2 and top 1/3 at UofT and Osgoode are roughly equal, which isn't a the worse assumption to make considering the numerically stronger body at UofT. He also mentioned that even if you assume making top 1/3 at both schools is roughly the same difficulty, I should consider the premium that I would be paying for those chances. By itself, the difference in tuition is more than $20,000, and the calculus changes when scholarship/bursary money is on the table (I will be getting nothing from UofT financial aid)

I'm also considering doing a JD/MBA, and that would tip the scales heavily in Osgoode's favour if I end up doing it, considering the connections I made at the faculty during my undergrad, and I wouldn't have to take the core business courses again.

[tortsforthewin]

Would you really have to retake core business courses at U of T? My understanding is that Rotman recognizes transfer credit just as Schulich does - and by most rankings, it is a far better business school with greater exposure to Bay Street.

I suppose I continue to be perplexed with respect to why Osgoode is on the table for you. You have strong stats and were admitted early to U of T. Even if hiring were on par for equally talented students, the school admits better candidates (so you'll be among a stronger talent pool on average), the lifestyle is far better (downtown Toronto vs. the questionable environs of York's campus) and the sense of community is stronger. I don't quite buy the top 1/3 vs. top 1/2 analogy (recognize that Osgoode's admission stats are materially lower than U of T's), but even if it did stand true, you can't wear your transcript on your sleeve. People know that students coming from U of T surpass a certain threshold of ability and the majority of them are strong candidates. In the job market for the rest of your life, U of T will mean something - going to Osgoode will only be equally impressive if you can show them your grades. The only real reason for Oz that I can discern from your posts is the cost, which a. isn't significant in the long term and b. doesn't seem to be your biggest consideration, given that you will have access to parental financing.

There's my overly opinionated two cents.

Edited by tortsforthewin, 11 January 2012 - 10:47 PM.

[tng11]

 tortsforthewin, on 11 January 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

Would you really have to retake core business courses at U of T? My understanding is that Rotman recognizes transfer credit just as Schulich does - and by most rankings, it is a far better business school with greater exposure to Bay Street.

Yes, I would have to retake the core business courses. Rotman does not grant advanced standing to anyone.

Quote

I suppose I continue to be perplexed with respect to why Osgoode is on the table for you. You have strong stats and were admitted early to U of T. Even if hiring were on par for equally talented students, the school admits better candidates (so you'll be among a stronger talent pool on average), the lifestyle is far better (downtown Toronto vs. the questionable environs of York's campus) and the sense of community is stronger. I don't quite buy the top 1/3 vs. top 1/2 analogy (recognize that Osgoode's admission stats are materially lower than U of T's), but even if it did stand true, you can't wear your transcript on your sleeve. People know that students coming from U of T surpass a certain threshold of ability and the majority of them are strong candidates. In the job market for the rest of your life, U of T will mean something - going to Osgoode will only be equally impressive if you can show them your grades. The only real reason for Oz that I can discern from your posts is the cost, which a. isn't significant in the long term and b. doesn't seem to be your biggest consideration, given that you will have access to parental financing.

There's my overly opinionated two cents.

There's no arguing that the UofT student body is numerically stronger, but that's actually one factor that's a bit disconcerting to me. I wasn't expecting to get into the UofT given the high GPAs of its student body, and I would argue that I'm not in an ideal situation to compete with people who were able to pull off 3.9/4.0 GPAs for 4 years.

The UofT reputation would likely carry more weight without a transcript, but the reality is that the 2L hiring apparently relies a lot on transcripts, and being in the bottom third at UofT is still a bad spot to be in compared to top half. After you get that first job though, the name of the school starts mattering less and less (according to current lawyers), and it's the experience at firms which determine your exit options down the road.

Plus, I would be living in downtown Toronto (as I do now), and although York's campus is questionable, I am aware that Osgoode is somewhat in a silo at York (even more so than Schulich).

And yes, finances are a huge driver of my decision. That's why I'm not attending a T14, even though I tell myself I want to practice in Canada, NYC is still very alluring for what I want to do (which does give points to the UofT, because the top few at UofT get a shot at NYC Biglaw).

[Rashabon]

The level of competitive applicants to U of T law school should not give you concern when it comes to doing well in law school. Nobody is prepared for law school but someone who has studied law. There are no advantages from undergrads or even Masters or PhDs that will be measurable. As long as you put work in you can succeed at U of T.

Going to a school that you perceive to be slightly easier, or being concerned about the level of competition with other students is not a valid or reasonable concern when it comes to picking law school.

[tng11]

Rashabon, on 12 January 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

The level of competitive applicants to U of T law school should not give you concern when it comes to doing well in law school. Nobody is prepared for law school but someone who has studied law. There are no advantages from undergrads or even Masters or PhDs that will be measurable. As long as you put work in you can succeed at U of T.

Going to a school that you perceive to be slightly easier, or being concerned about the level of competition with other students is not a valid or reasonable concern when it comes to picking law school.

You're right. I'm just grasping at straws to look for other reasons why I would attend Osgoode, because inside I don't really want to admit that the money is probably going to be the deciding factor.

[Uriel]

As above, go where you want to practice. Networks, knowledge of local law, ease of satisfying employers that you'll stay, etc.

I never considered BC in part because it never seemed to me that the average lawyer's salary was coordinate with the obscene real estate costs out there.