56 replies to this topic

[ihaveseoul]

Error01 said:

Did they actually increase the class size from 75 to 110 and then reduce it back to 75 again, or was the reduction from 110 by a lesser amount? I said that 75 was an aggressive assumption because I wasn’t sure that the class size had been reduced by the full amount and because the school has expressed plans to increase class sizes again in the future. It’s not a terrible assumption though.

U of C increased class size from 75 to 100. This year's 1st year class does have just over 100 because none of the students that paid to reserve their spots refuse it so they ended up over. I am not aware of desires to increase in the future. 100 is the intended enrollment from all information I am aware of (and was 2 of the last 3 years).

[veecee]

As an update, the stats now take into account two maritime firms, Stewart McKelvey and McInnes Cooper. Unsurprisingly, this has increased the ratios for Dal and UNB considerably. I also added in McMillan, and will likely do Bennet Jones at some point later today.

At that point, the stats will reflect numbers from every Canadian firm with at least 200 viable data (except Borden), which seems to be an awesome/arbitrary place for me to draw the line.

[Lionel.Hutz]

ITT: Stat manipulation to make your school look the best.

[veecee]

Lionel.Hutz said:

ITT: Stat manipulation to make your school look the best.

Probably, but is it surprising that we seek out reassurance concerning circumstances or decisions that we feel insecure about? I don't really think so myself. In fact, that's partly why I wrote this software, although, admittedly, I don't think I will end up pursuing biglaw.

I find it equally unsurprising that the stats lend themselves so easily to the kind of manipulation you have described. In my opinion, this implies that the cliche about Canadian law schools is true - they're all good choices.

[Lionel.Hutz]

veecee said:

Lionel.Hutz said:

ITT: Stat manipulation to make your school look the best.

Probably, but is it surprising that we seek out reassurance concerning circumstances or decisions that we feel insecure about? I don't really think so myself. In fact, that's partly why I wrote this software, although, admittedly, I don't think I will end up pursuing biglaw.

I find it equally unsurprising that the stats lend themselves so easily to the kind of manipulation you have described. In my opinion, this implies that the cliche about Canadian law schools is true - they're all good choices.

Not at all. I spend all day reassuring myself about making the choice to go to LS. I just thought it was kinda funny.

[SchOZ]

Good stuff veecee. I'm writing something about venture capital firms right now, and you're user name makes me think I should get back to it. (V/C=venture capital)

[serdog]

I starting to regret turning down UBC for UVIC :( 30% lower BigLaw placement :(

[confusedlawyer]

If you wanted BigLaw why didn't you go to U of T? If it was a $$$ factor you should have gonne with UBC the, but UVic is still a great school.

[veecee]

[/quote] [quote name="serdog"]I starting to regret turning down UBC for UVIC :( 30% lower BigLaw placement :([/quote]

The stats relate to how well schools place in biglaw, and provide no information relevant to an individual student's chances of ending up in biglaw.

[whereverjustice]

veecee said:

The stats relate to how well schools place in biglaw, and provide no information relevant to an individual student's chances of ending up in biglaw.

Yeah. The word "placement" itself is misleading; schools don't put people in jobs. Students put themselves in jobs. Not that chance and other factors beyond their control don't play a role, but no one should be under the impression that law schools will take responsibility for your job search.

[osgoode_student]

whereverjustice said:

veecee said:

The stats relate to how well schools place in biglaw, and provide no information relevant to an individual student's chances of ending up in biglaw.

Yeah. The word "placement" itself is misleading; schools don't put people in jobs. Students put themselves in jobs. Not that chance and other factors beyond their control don't play a role, but no one should be under the impression that law schools will take responsibility for your job search.

The school you attend does have an impact in landing a job while in law school, it's just not as big (for the most part) as prospective students think.

However, the reality is that the law school you attend only really comes into play when you're applying for summer and articling positions. For first-year associate positions, maybe a little. After that, it's pretty much only based on your experience, personality and connections. And, as much as it may be difficult for some prospective students to believe, not everyone who is hired back after articling at a big firm wants to continue after a year or two. A ton of people decide to move on to other things, so by that point it's more the employees dictating jobs rather than the firms.

But it's still interesting, so good job on compiling these stats.

[Therumpshaker]

veecee, on 11 April 2011 - 10:00 AM, said:

Probably, but is it surprising that we seek out reassurance concerning circumstances or decisions that we feel insecure about? I don't really think so myself. In fact, that's partly why I wrote this software, although, admittedly, I don't think I will end up pursuing biglaw.

I find it equally unsurprising that the stats lend themselves so easily to the kind of manipulation you have described. In my opinion, this implies that the cliche about Canadian law schools is true - they're all good choices.

I think you're brilliant.

[Argh]

Pretty interesting stuff.

[Stupor]

This should be a sticky. Thanks veecee.

The stats show just how regional each school is. Alberta dominates Edmonton, Calgary dominates Calgary, UBC dominates Vancouver, McGill dominates Montreal, Dal dominates Halifax. UofT is top dog in Toronto, though it is not nearly as dominant as the other schools are in their own markets.

(Obviously this doesn't mean that the students are limited to their own markets only; this may just be the result of students' selecting their school based on where they would like to work).

[veecee]

Stupor, on 27 October 2011 - 12:02 PM, said:

This should be a sticky. Thanks veecee.

Cheers. I thought it should be sticky'd too, and made a request to that effect. Oh well.

[Another Hutz]

Link is broken on my end. All I see is a white page with the following text:

Quote

veecee's canadian biglaw employment stats, collected Apr 4th, 2011

Warning: mysql_connect() [function.mysql-connect]: Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 111 in /home/vol3/xtreemhost.com/xth_7631272/htdocs/stats.php on line 35
Could not connect: Lost connection to MySQL server at 'reading initial communication packet', system error: 111

[veecee]

Another Hutz, on 29 October 2011 - 08:15 PM, said:

Link is broken on my end. All I see is a white page with the following text:

Free webhosting temporarily overwhelmed. Problem fixed!

[anaMC]

Do these stats assume that everyone who graduates from law school is looking for a job at a private firm? What about the public sector? Not to mention other options. Seems unrepresentative.

[veecee]

anaMC, on 02 November 2011 - 04:48 PM, said:

Do these stats assume that everyone who graduates from law school is looking for a job at a private firm? What about the public sector? Not to mention other options. Seems unrepresentative.

1. The stats are a measure of how many people from each of the English-language common law schools are working at select Canadian BigLaw firms, indexed by region. Law grads working outside of BigLaw are completely irrelevant to this end, since we can't know if these students self-selected or just didn't get a job in Biglaw.

2. Even more irrelevant to this measure is whether any individual law student desires to go into BigLaw vs. small/medium firm or public sector work. Individual desires tell me almost nothing about the aggregate I'm trying to describe, and moreover, are unknowable/unmeasurable.

3. One could argue that certain schools attract a certain type of student, and these students on aggregate may be more or less likely to seek or obtain a BigLaw job. Therefore, the numbers for any given school could reflect student body trends rather than a bias in hiring for grads from that school. If so...neato! But I don't purport to measure such trends in the student body or firm hiring preferences, because that would be impossible.

But yes, the stats are unrepresentative of things they don't purport to measure - time, space, the depth of human emotion, temperature, the amount of degradation I'd be willing to endure for a Klondike bar, etc.

Edit: changed "because it's" to "are"

Edited by veecee, 02 November 2011 - 05:37 PM.

[Malicious Prosecutor]

You know if you wanted to make this about Toronto that would be one thing. What schools get you a chance at a job in Bay Street is at least something you could more predictably measure.

But you have such a bizarre mixture of firms which make up "Biglaw". Then once a firm gets qualified as "Biglaw" every single office they have suddenly counts, even when they are a minor presence in their respective market. I was going to complain how you didn't include Bennet Jones, but at least you acknowledged that. But why you would incude the Atlantic firms - they really aren't comparable to the other firms on your list. As well every second tier city has firms that are extremely selective in hiring as well. It's damn hard to get into a top Edmonton firm, or a top Winnipeg firm. They are "Biglaw" for their own particular market.

And lets not forget you've skipped Quebec firms and civil law schools entirely.

[LikeThat12]

Veecee, I only recently realized the charts in your study include links for each school that show practicioners by firm, by office, and by year. If I ever meet you, I will shower you with confetti and offer you an indelible choice of ice cream cakes.

[KateLaw]

Mal, on 08 April 2011 - 07:46 PM, said:

Point in fact: Mal. I am a unfriendly grouch, who never would have been admitted to UofC despite the fact that I would have dominated the class academically (both based on law performance and last2/lsat factors). Schools that admit less jerks like myself are nicer to be in.

Ahaha very noble of you to self-criticize like that

[veecee]

Malicious Prosecutor, on 13 February 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

A bunch of stuff.

HAH. I'm sure your biglaw hiring stats account for these glaring flaws. But seriously, did I not put a big enough disclaimer on my original post? Geez louise

In any case, I added the Atlantic firms because otherwise Atlantic schools had almost no representation. You could make the same argument for prairie schools, but they seemed to have decent representation in Calgary anyways, and also that would have been more work. Further, note that I didn't define biglaw as those firms which are "extremely selective in hiring," (note the lack of elite boutique firms) but rather those which are large and have websites which accommodated my software.

LikeThat12, on 09 March 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

Veecee, I only recently realized the charts in your study include links for each school that show practicioners by firm, by office, and by year. If I ever meet you, I will shower you with confetti and offer you an indelible choice of ice cream cakes.

Very well, I accept. (P.S. At first, I read that as an "inedible choice of ice cream cakes.")

[QuincyWagstaff]

Mal, on 08 April 2011 - 07:46 PM, said:

Point in fact: Mal. I am a unfriendly grouch, who never would have been admitted to UofC despite the fact that I would have dominated the class academically (both based on law performance and last2/lsat factors). Schools that admit less jerks like myself are nicer to be in.

UBC basically told me this was largely the impetus for their move towards more holistic admissions. Not sure how I feel about this; I was accepted because I’m a good test-taker. I’m outgoing and can turn on the charm in an interview, but I’m deeply misanthropic. I'd get dinged at truly holistic schools, I imagine. Not well-rounded, and I don't play that game to appear so.

Edited by QuincyWagstaff, 03 April 2012 - 05:00 PM.

[Phoenix-Wright]

QuincyWagstaff, on 03 April 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

UBC basically told me this was largely the impetus for their move towards more holistic admissions. Not sure how I feel about this; I was accepted because I’m a good test-taker. I’m outgoing and can turn on the charm in an interview, but I’m deeply misanthropic. I'd get dinged at truly holistic schools, I imagine. Not well-rounded, and I don't play that game to appear so.

What! Really? How have you been hiding this from us so well the whole time?

[spicys25]

I'm aware that this forum has been specified to Canadian Universities, but i've been looking at Universities abroad and thought i'd share a UK Uni I came across in the July 2011 Guardian report. Apparently 100% of the graduates of this Law School find employment within law firms.The course sounds pretty intense as it takes a 3 year course and condenses it into two. Guess if your up for the challenge it is a University to look into: http://www.buckingha...bout/employment.

[whereverjustice]

To avoid having two parallel conversations on the topic, I'll point out that spicys25 has started a new thread about Buckingham here: http://lawstudents.c...806#entry319806