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providence last won the day on August 14

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  1. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    I don’t think this is a case of the same people talking in threads at all. @richelieu and @treemonster are participating, and they aren’t necessarily the most prolific posters here. Myself, @BlockedQuebecois and @epeeist participated also, yes. Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from weighing in. It’s kind of a ridiculous complaint: I don’t like that other people are talking about something that I could talk about too if I wanted, but I’m going to complain and try to shut down their discussion rather than join it. Edit: @conge participated too
  2. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    Well, it isn’t increasing access/diversity and lack of access/diversity is harmful, so.....
  3. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    My interpretation: there are so few low income students to start with that that means very little. There are lots of visible minority students but overwhelmingly from Asian communities and not representative of other, more marginalized communities.
  4. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    I searched for info on the alleged benefits to low income kids of higher tuition, and all I could find was U of T claiming that at one time, 30% of tuition was being put aside for financial aid (which I don't think happens any more, and we've already seen that financial aid hasn't kept up.) Since they weren't tracking student body stats until recently, I don't know how they would know whether disadvantaged students are enrolling in higher or lower or steady numbers. I would have to see the source of that statement because it seems very counter-intuitive.
  5. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    http://www.ohrc.on.ca/ur/book/export/html/8976 http://a2justice.ca/2014/10/just-or-bust-you-cant-argue-with-cold-hard-facts/ http://lsso.ca/en/2014/09/law-student-survey-raises-serious-questions-about-access-to-legal-education/ Key Facts and Figures: U of T Law Tuition: In 1997-98 tuition was $3808. It rose by $2000 per year until 2003-04 to reach $16,000. The province then froze tuition for 2 years. In 2005-06 it was capped at 8% until 2013-14, and 5% thereafter. Since 2005-06, tuition has risen by the maximum allowed every year. In 2015-16 tuition is $33,105, almost 35% higher than the next highest Ontario school, Osgoode, at $24,745. At this rate, by 2018-19, the 20th anniversary of the start of this process, fees will have risen by 1000%. Financial Aid: Endowment: In newspaper op eds in 2001 and 2002, then Dean Ron Daniels claimed that from 1995 to 2001 the Financial Aid endowment increased from $500,000 to $18,000,000. In 2016, it stands at $24,000,000. This initial endowment is impressive, as were its effects. In 2000-01, 35 students attended U of T tuition free, and one-third of students received financial aid. However, the endowment has grown by only 33% in the last 15 years, while tuition more than tripled. As the cost of tuition accelerated, the value of the aid endowment stagnated. The following graph illustrates how tuition is pulling away from the aid available: The results: as many as 40 full tuition bursaries were being awarded by 2003-04, but by 2010-11, that number was down to 0. Today half the student body receives financial aid; as tuition climbs ever higher, more and more students are in need. It looks as though a slowly growing pie is being divided into an ever smaller number of slices. To illustrate the trend: In 2003-04, 40 students received tuition waivers (value: maximum $16000 for 1L, $13230 for 3L). The average bursary for 1L students was nearly half the value of tuition. By 2014-15, when tuition was $30,230, the average bursary was $9209. No student received a bursary worth more than half the value of tuition. The average bursary received by a 1L student was $8640, approximately 30% of the tuition rate. Redistribution: As the era of rapid tuition increases was being rolled out, the province required universities to set aside 30% of all tuition increases to supplement the financial aid program, and Dean Daniels proclaimed his support for such reinvestment of tuition increases as a mark of the Faculty’s commitment to accessibility. When the freeze ended, the provincial requirement to return 30% of increased tuition revenue to financial aid was quietly dropped. We can’t be sure whether the Faculty of Law continued to adhere to Dean Daniels’ promise thereafter or not. However, this was exactly the period during which increases in the financial aid budget began to slow. (From 2003-04 until 2014-15, the aggregate value of bursaries increased approximately 63%; over that period, tuition more than doubled.) Access and Career Choice Over the years, many have voiced concern that high tuition was likely to keep lower income students from attending the University of Toronto. Many also expressed concerns that students would be driven into jobs in large firms whatever their interests or inclinations. The Canadian Bar Association’s National Standing Committee on Equality assembled the evidence and made submissions to Governing Council on both these matters in April 2003, emphasizing the likely effects of high tuition levels on racialized communities, women, and other marginalized groups. The CBA Committee, student groups, and concerned faculty all urged the University to track the effects of tuition increases carefully. No rigorous and systematic collection of data along these lines has ever been undertaken. Student groups continue to raise concerns that the law school does not reflect our society. The available evidence suggests these concerns are not idle. For example, a Statistics Canada report published in 2005 (Marc Frenette, “The Impact of Tuition Fees on University Access: Evidence from a Large-scale Price Deregulation in Professional Programs”) studied changes in enrollment patterns in Ontario as fees in professional programs rose much more sharply here than in other provinces. It concluded: …over the period of rapidly increasing tuition fees in professional programs, enrollment patterns by socioeconomic background changed substantially in Ontario, where tuition fees increased the most. Specifically, enrolment rose among Ontario students whose parents held a graduate or professional degree. … In provinces such as Quebec and British Columbia, where tuition fees were frozen over the period, no changes in enrollment patterns by socioeconomic background were registered. (Frenette, p.8)
  6. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    I didn't say admission should be by undergrad/LSAT alone. That's a separate issue.
  7. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    I have not read anything suggesting that. If the student body is overwhelmingly privileged, doesn't that suggested that marginalized people are, by definition, being harmed by being excluded? Or by feeling alienated if they do make it in?
  8. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    You would only get in if you were truly talented and you would be able to access more financial aid etc with less competition for it.
  9. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    https://www.law.utoronto.ca/about/jd-first-year-class-profile 91% of class NOT first in family to attend post-secondary education 2% of class is indigenous, less than 1% is black and less than 1% is Latino 33% are not white, but most of those are Asian (25%) Only 8% or so raised in a single-parent household 97% do not have kids 85% do not have disabilities Only 2% have parents who did not complete high school Etc. The vast majority are still relatively privileged and many marginalized groups do not have much access. I doubt tuition increases are doing anything to remedy this.
  10. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    I think capping/reducing enrollment would benefit minorities, and everyone.... only the most deserving people with the best chances to have a decent career would get into law school. Sounds good to me.
  11. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    With tuition so high, there is less incentive to go into less well-paying areas of the law that actually serve those people.
  12. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    I have not read that for Canada. For U of T, for example, what I have read is that available financial aid is split into smaller portions so that students on aid now get less than half their tuition covered by the school. More people are on aid, but are receiving less of it proportionate to tuition.
  13. Articling -sole practitioner - salary range

    The tuition increases are hurting marginalized populations currently, with law schools' attitudes seeming to be to cram in more and more students and charge more and more for the privilege. Having more seats doesn't improve accessibility if tuition keeps going up. I would think it is the less privileged people who can't do the risk reward analysis because they just don't know anything about the legal profession or how to assess their prospects. I sure was clueless when I started. I just assumed law school = riches beyond imagination when you graduate. Law schools don't disabuse prospective students of this notion because it's not in their business interests.
  14. Trinity Western drops mandatory covenant

    I don't actually really like that program, no. I think indigenous law should be woven in with all subjects in law school and taught to everyone, not ghetto-ized.
  15. Trinity Western drops mandatory covenant

    I actually would prefer that law schools not be affiliated to any particular race, religion, gender or other social group and that they all be as diverse as possible.