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maximumbob last won the day on February 2

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  1. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    Ok, but look we know most university graduates don’t work as baristas. Because we know what the average income of those graduates are: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2015050-eng.htm. You don’t make that kind of money serving lattes. See also: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/81-595-m/2014101/section02-eng.htm We also know the most common occupations of bachelor degree holders. What’s telling is that while retail sales or food servers are typically one of the most common occupations, they typically account for 2-4% of all graduates (depending onthe degree - the data is only for males, so it’s probably higher for woman), suggesting that those stereotypes are not representative of the reality of post secondary employment for university grads: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/11f0019m/2017388/tbl/tbl01-eng.htm. THe second study I cited above also suggest that most grads (~80%) work in areas that are related or somewhat related to their education We can trade annecdotes, but the data backs me up.
  2. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    Let’s see, of my various friends who graduated with degrees in poli sci, a bunch ended up doing government relations for large corporations, one does crisis management in the civil service, one works for the OBA, one ended up as a lobbyist, a bunch worked in politics, one ended up working for Microsoft. None of these guys were bright enough to get into law school, all ended up in careers in which they make money in the top 10-20% of the income spectrum (after a number of years of course). Hey, I spend the afternoon arguing with a CRA “expert” who is apparently unfamiliar with a key provision of the area of her supposed expertise, so I don’t need to be reminded of thenstupidity of the educated class. But lawyers live in a refined atmosphere, most People are less smart than they are - they manage.
  3. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    Who’s talking about walking into another profession? Is that the only alternative to being a lawyer? What do the tens of thousands of people with BA’s do every year? Every single law grad has a university degree they can fall back on. Joking aside, they make good money (and, recall, law school graduates are not average undergrad grads). And while they make less money than the average lawyer, they probably make more money than the struggling new call trying to establish a practice. Certainly they probably have a much more pleasant lifestyle and work a lot less hard. What kinda of world do we live in where the career propects of university graduates who attend law school is either being a lawyer, serving lattes or digging ditches? And why can’t they say they’re a lawyer? They are a lawyer. They’re just not practicing. As for prestige, man, hustling for clients at the Scarborough courthouse - a place with all the prestige of a public urinal - doesn’t really move my needle.
  4. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    But is the only option for lawyers who can't find an associate position to become a solo? If we accept the proposition that people who become lawyers are usually drawn from a pool of pretty bright people, it doesn't follow that the inevitable result of producing more law students is an increase in solos with marginal practices. As you note, that's a damned hard way to make a buck, there are easier ways for a law school grad to make a living outside of law.
  5. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    I think we're largely in agreement. On the competition point, the problem is that the market for lawyers is part of a much larger market for skilled workers. The floor on wages isn't driven by a LACK of competition among lawyers (after all, it's a huge and highly competitive industry), it's driven by competition for skilled workers - including lawyers - in the broader economy. Increasing the supply of lawyers only drives down wages for lawyers to their reservation wage - what they can make elsewhere (adjusted for things like hours, effort, stress, benefits, etc.). Beyond that, they leave the profession and do something else. Smart educated people can make God money, that doesn't change just because they become lawyers.
  6. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    OK, but we're still talking, what, B students? I mean, god knows, you don't need to be a genius to be a B student in undergrad, but they're not usually a collection of dullards (except, perhaps, set against the exhalted standards of the likes of you and I ). I'd be worried if it was a school that wasn't likely to crank out graduates who were likely to be able to satisfy whatever licensing standards the LSUC imposes - which is the basis on which the ABA is threatening to dis-accredit certain US degree mills. But, that falls within the LSUC's mandate to regulate the standards of learning. A program that doesn't produce graduates capable of being licensed shouldn't be accredited. I don't think it's plausibly to say that Rye High can't be expected to produce graduates capable of being licensed under the current regime (whether they will be is a different story, but so long as they're capable of being, that's fine). Now, maybe if you or I get the lSUC to jack up standards, maybe that get's revised, but in truth, even then, it seems unlikely.
  7. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    (A) because they're a statutory body which doesn't have the authority to do that, and it's kinda nice to see the LSUC comply with the law from time to time and (B) why is it cruel? People make bad investments all the time. Do we tell people that they can't start restaurants, because they might go under or fail a health inspection? But this goes to Huju's point. Is it really the case that the line between competent and incompetent lawyers just happens to coincide with the people who are currently admitted to law school? Remarkable. And is the universe clearly divided between competent and incompetent. Or, is it more of a spectrum, ranging from excellent, to good, to OK, to meh, to better than representing yourself, to incompetent? Do all lawyers need to be Cadillacs? Wouldn't some people better off driving a Chevy (or... gaak... a Chrysler) instead of walking? "Better than representing yourself" may be a low threshold but it's... um... better than representing yourself.
  8. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    Except Toronto, and the surrounding areas, have, what, 70-80% of Ontario's populations. More to the point, Rye High is the university putting forward a proposal for a new law schools. Its not a choice between it and something in .... well, where do YOU think the underserved people live? It's Ryerson, yes or no. I'm pretty sure more lawyers isn't going to solve access to justice issues because the people who become lawyers aren't going to work for the money that poor people can actually afford. The only solution is either people willing to work for lower wages (either because they just care so much or because they have fewer outside options (perhaps because they're dumber) or some kinda beefed up legal aid (which is never going to happen). If you're right, and Rye High attracts a collection of dullards, it might actually advance access to justice.
  9. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    OK, but it's about licensing and training - clearly within the LSUC's mandate. Is the LPP not a licensing and educational program? Does it not license and educate would-be lawyers? Now, if your argument is that the licensing and training is inadequate, I'm all for that (but note that the same could be said of some people who come out of the articling process - I couldn't have been a successful solo), but that's a call for the LSUC to improve it's licensing regime, not to limit the number of people who can enter it. Arguing that practice standards are too low is fine, so change the standards. That really has nothing to do with allowing Rye High to open a law school or not.
  10. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    I'm not sure how opening another law school would adversely affect access to justice. At worst it might do nothing to improve the existing issues, and there's at least an arguable case that it might improve (for example, if they achieve their purported goal of improving representation from historically underrepresented groups) And who know, maybe their "innovative" new curriculum will produce new and better lawyers. I won't hold my breath, but I think they should be given an opportunity to try and let the market sort itself out.
  11. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    Not really, the LPP fits within the LSUC's mandate for training would-be lawyers - it's squarely within section 4.1 of the Law Society Act. It has nothing to do with maintaining the economic viability of law school graduates (indeed, I've noted before that all it really does is put for a year the realization that there's no job).
  12. Windsor vs. Osgoode: "Big Five" Firm Prospects

    They're not mutually exclusive - indeed, the cruelest is to be chained to your desk AND facing the lake on a beautiful Friday afternoon. At least if your only view is the office of the guy across the street, you can maintain the illusion that no one else is having fun.
  13. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    Right, but the people who currently don't go to Bond and Leicester aren't going to go to Bond and Leiceister to fill the place of the people who previously went to Bond and Leicester but now can go to Ryerson, which is what you're suggesting. And to the extent that they can get into Ryerson ahead of people who currently go to Bond and Leicester, that's a step up in the quality of our lawyers.
  14. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    I don't know, why wouldn't those people currently go to a Bond or a Leicester? I think you overestimate the demand for legal education by CAnadians and underestimate the near infinite supply of such education in foreign markets. Any Canadian who wants a law degree badly enough now can get one.
  15. Ryerson Law by 2020 - Letter of Intent

    RIght now there's no guarantee the LPP program will run beyond 2019. I strongly suspect, based on the LSUC's initial assessments, if it continues, it's funding regime will be changed. I think long term, what's going to happen is that Rye High will offer the LPP as a separate licensing pathway (similar to what happens in other jurisdictions) that will build off of their new law school (and, no doubt, cater to many of its grads) and other than regulating it, the LSUC will have no involvement. Which is as it should be. Also, not sure it's obvious that rye high will significantly net increase the number of law school graduates in Ontario. It might mean that people who currently go to Bond or Leicester or Saskatchewan or Moncton, then come back, instead stay in Ontario. In that case, my expectation is that it would represent a net increase in quality - since at least graduates would be learning Canadian/Ontario law. Also, in the last decade the existing law schools have sharply increased enrollment, have we seen the sort of spike in lawpro claims that we're worried about?