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theycancallyouhoju last won the day on April 18

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  1. Is law school fun?

    @pzabbythesecond Sure. With freak exceptions, there are minimums for hours put in - all humility aside, and this is more honest than I like to be, it will never stop bugging me that I got a question wrong on the LSAT. But if you don’t have enough free time to meet your minimum threshold, you shouldn’t be doing the task at all. It’s an unfortunate reality of life, and yes it means that some people’s natural talents will never come out. That’s a shame. But if you don’t have enough time to excel in law school, you sure as all hell don’t have enough time to excel in biglaw. Anyway. I’ve been in or post-law school for...holy crap, 6 years? There is always a few students who are convinced that if they spent 10 more hours a week resting or studying, they’d be strolling into Wall Street. When you tell them the kids on WS worked less than that, they’ll come up with some new reason why their “true” skill level didn’t materialize. @Kemair‘s position and faith that he knows better than employers, schools and classmates who do excel is a trope of law school. (And, maybe! But go prove us wrong, then.)
  2. Is law school fun?

    You should consider the possibility that people who excel don’t think the same way you do. My first experience with the LSAT, I sat down and did a whole test through timed. I got somewhere around a 170/172, I don’t quite recall. What I do remember is calling my friend in law school and asking if I’d messed up and bought the wrong materials or something, because this seemed a little underwhelming. Yet for three more weeks I did a full test 5 days a week. Not because 172 wasn’t a good enough mark to get into UT (okay, also I was interested in Yale), but because I didn’t just want the good enough mark, I wanted to consistently be above it. I wanted to increase certainty, not peak outcome. One day, if you become a deal lawyer, you’ll understand the difference. I’m all in favor of lazily calling it a day when it makes sense - it’s my very favorite thing. But you’re not covering all the angles.
  3. Is law school fun?

    A few scattered thoughts. Marginal Difference. You’re right, a 179 on the LSAT is not much different from a 178. If you’re comparing different test years, it’s not different at all sometimes. But no legal employer has ever, I think, made a decision between two candidates based on the marginal difference of one mark. When I participate in the recruit, I think of students’ marks in something like buckets - “Super Duper” / “Pretty Okay” / “Not Quite There” / “Why Did They Apply”. I suspect everyone does. Associate Requirements. You talk an enormous game for someone with zero knowledge. (Aside: That’s not going to go well. I’ve seen it before. It didn’t go well.) I don’t believe all law students can do my job till 3rd year because I’ve seen people do it poorly. A firm may retain you that long - depending on the firm - but it’s because of other dynamics (replacing you is costly, lawyers can be bad at firing people, some professional sense of honor in training you, etc.) and it’s only true in some firms. Anyway, being a lawyer in a biglaw firm, I can tell you that not all of the people we recruit do well enough into 3rd year, and also that you should be a bit more hesitant to act authoritative on something so distant from your experience. Law Schools Should Tell it How it Is. You’re right! I do agree. I think a better world is one where law schools are very upfront about the job market - that would be a nice thing to do. So, we’re not actually that far off here. The only piece where we differ is on whether we think it’s very important. I found it extremely easy to learn about the legal job market before applying and I find it extremely stupid to believe anything a salesman tells you without your own research. So while I think law schools ought to be honest, I also think law students have the very low level of competence required to learn this on their own - thus, while an issue, it’s a very small issue. Free Markets. Bob covered this. I just wish to lend support. New York. Actually, I just have a queery here. You seem to think the NY recruit picks up many of the most competitive students, but also think grades are stupid. How do you reconcile those claims? I can tell you my firm has a cut-off that is...a bit more porous than you might guess, but is still a cut-off. Banking. Are you an iBanker? Do you have about 400 of them surrounding you every waking minute? Do you talk more to iBankers and PE guys than any other class of people? I do. I assure you, they are tested for fit. They don’t pretend otherwise. (Hell, I used to work retail and was tested for fit. Insofar as fit is a thing, it’s a thing to all employment - it only looks like a cold sore when you’re in an industry with a lot of employers you don’t fit with. It reminds me of how some of my former classmates who excel in environmental law or union law or whatnot derided bay for looking at ‘fit’, but then rather openly admitted that Hoju wouldn’t fit in their shop. Fit is that thing that you see when you don’t have it, and don’t notice when you do.) Finally - and this is just so much more important - investment guys and gals need to have enormous interpersonal skills, most of the time, to really do their job at peak levels. Grades do not even slightly measure that. Pound for pound, I think a lawyer can be more of a social outcast than someone you’re going to put on a board. — TL;dr - “Grades mostly reflect time invested” is the single most incorrect thing you could say about the LSAT or law school and, even though it’s extremely unlikely you’ll agree to that, it’s important that 1Ls reading this are aware.
  4. Is law school fun?

    Where even to begin? @Kemair If I’ve understood your rambling, the only point in here is that some people have less time to commit to law school. I agree! I worked a part time job during 1L - the only year my marks mattered. I also had about 60 hours/week of work (well 45+way too much commute) in my LSAT/application summer. Nowadays I read LS.ca threads where students talk about committing 3 - 9 months (!!!!!!!!) to LSAT prep and making sure they live 2 minutes from campus so they can study till 11pm every night once they get into school. I will never stop thinking that’s insane. But there’s an experiential point that’s relevant to the discussion at hand - those kids don’t do very well very often. I’m making numbers up (aren’t we all), but more than 90% of the time someone says they’re going to prep the LSAT for 9 months, their score is fluctuating between an unacceptably low 150-ish and a sort of okay 165-ish. The people who are good at the LSAT generally get it quickly. I know this both because I was one (179, if we’re going there) and tutored it to all the kids with more money than analytic ability. I also knew the kids in law school who got 5 As because most of us showed up at NY interviews or were otherwise pretty obviously smart. They weren’t at the library till 11 - or if they were, it’s because they were the kind of bores who find it fun to hang out with their friends sending snaps till 11 trying to make two hours of reading actually go down the brain stem. (Instead of the kind of bore I was, going home to read what temperature to cook chicken to and weep for the young.) In short, I haven’t seen even the slightest evidence that accomplishment in law school is proportional to hours put in and I spend about 25% of my posts here trying to convince pre-law and 1L kids not to think that way. So while neither of us has any meaningful data, and therefore it’s going to be hard to convince each other, I watched this whole thing unfold from a front seat in the ‘pretty okay at law school’ category and it looked like the above. Notably, the same theory held in other areas of study. The better students in undergrad weren’t working more hours, they were just smarter. The better chess players don’t play more hours, they’re just smarter. Now. Allow me to address the rest.
  5. What are examples of "strong" ECs?

    Not being on an admissions committee, I can’t speak with any authority. But in my year at UT we had people who were running small businesses, former soldiers, elite (if not Olympic) athletes, people with national and global championships under their belts, people who ran NGOs, former parliamentary staffers, very accomplished/award-winning musicians, etc. We also had people who reported, at least to me, nothing cool whatsoever. So my guess is those are the kind of things that qualify as stand out attributes outside of school, because they stood out to me. If you don’t have something where you’ve already truly excelled on a level well above your university peers, then get the good GPA and the good LSAT score and have a few side hustles to make it look like you weren’t stoned/drunk/instagramming* all of the rest of the time. *Curating ones instagram being what the NYT and Atlantic have convinced me the younger generation do instead of sex, alcohol and rock & roll.
  6. Low cGPA 3.1

    That's a tough position and I admire your effort and fortitude. Keep it up. Remember there's more than one road to Rome.
  7. Low cGPA 3.1

    No. I believe some people do all of those things well. I'm not interested in constitutional law, but I don't see how that stopped me getting an A (....ugh...HH). Look. Everyone - without exception - who is bad at a bunch of things says, "sure, but the things I'm bad at are meaningless". If employers believed everyone who said that, there would be nothing left to distinguish candidates at all. In which case your lawyer should just be someone randomly assigned to you by a roll of the dice.
  8. Ask a 3L!

    Oh. Law students come from bank. Of that there can be no doubt - that metric is consistent year by year in the UV survey.
  9. Ask a 3L!

    http://ultravires.ca/wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/UV-February-2018-Recruitment-Special.pdf Stats! So apparently 22% of that year's class had a parent who attended law school. Considering most people who attend law school stop practicing long before their kids turn 22, it seems fairly safe to assume that at most ~10%* of students even have parents who are still lawyers. You'd have to assume it's not the case that those are all biglaw partners, being that there are other lawyer gigs and all. *I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I think the stats would actually imply a much lower number - something like half of all new calls have stopped practicing by 6 years out.
  10. How did you feel after you accepted?

    Now, now. You're all either law students or almost law students. It's time to admit that taking pride in your LSAT isn't cocky, it's beneath you. You have entirely new realms of cocky to explore.
  11. How did you feel after you accepted?

    How about continuing flame wars others began?
  12. How did you feel after you accepted?

    Don't low ball this.
  13. Tips on Being a Great Summer Student

    I don't think that's true at all. I came back from my summer with partners and seniors reaching out to work with me specifically because I'd managed to bumble my way through summer without too much incompetence (relatively speaking). I had colleagues with the same experience and colleagues who were subject to the luck of the draw of the random assignment machine. This will be firm dependent, obviously, but if you're in a place where people can draft you directly, I am quite confident that you can put yourself enough ahead of the pack in the summer that it provides better outcomes. Also, I remember summers (for good and bad reasons) and I'm a lawyer. So...
  14. Ask a 3L!

    I found neither of these claims to be true. I am about 70% as opinionated and obnoxious in real life as I am on here and it caused no issues at all. While there are some law students with parents who are biglaw partners, they probably number around 2-4% of the total class, with some others having parents who are lawyers in other capacities, arbitrators, former lawyers, etc. Edit: And I would specifically encourage you to seek out people with different approaches and opinions. Life is monotonous and boring otherwise.
  15. Tips on Being a Great Summer Student

    They’re also plainly not better at it, because they don’t know what the legal effect of their decisions is. It seems that no matter how detailed my instructions are, something goes amiss. In the end, it’s always good that you know how to do any task that could be needed within a 20 minute span. Formatting tricks are squarely within that zone for your first summer and year.